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Old 11-28-2009, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,384 times
Reputation: 43

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No.. Left Behind authors teach there is a rapture... the bible never states that some people will not die but go straight to heaven.. Heaven is not for living people... So do you mean you will be raptured into death?
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Don't you read he bible at all? Paul teaches that we shall not all die but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, this mortal must put on immortality. In Thess Paul very definitely say they who are alive and remain will be caught up.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
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Quote God's word "we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, so shall we ever be with Him"
Quote man's word [you] I don't know why you think you will be caught up with anyone.

Quote God's word "then shall the end come" and "lo I am with you until the end of the age" and "the end shall come with a loud bang and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements"

I do not believe in a "secret" rapture, I believe in being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds~and that is gunna rapture me like nothing ever raptured me, I am going to be raptured to pieces.
How is it that you think these verses, in a letter written to specific people, can possibly apply to you? Paul was specifically addressing the peoples concern that their loved ones would miss out on the glory of God because they were dead... Paul states in verse 18 that they should not worry because dead or alive they will be with the Lord when the day comes.

So did you know Paul? Are you afraid that those you love who are killed for being a christian are not going to be with you when christ returns? Of course not... because this letter was to specific people.. not to all generations.

The whole rapture doctrine rests on the verse in 1 Thess. (4:17)...

This "last trumpet" corresponds to Revelation 11:15-18 where the earth is the final destination of those you say are raptured... And tell me .. once you are raptured where do you go? We know that Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives .. does he just send all the raptured people up to heaven alive?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
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Don't you read he bible at all? Paul teaches that we shall not all die but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, this mortal must put on immortality. In Thess Paul very definitely say they who are alive and remain will be caught up.
What does the verse mean to you? You seem to think that caught up means raptured.. but it simply cannot.. Take a look at Zechariah 14:3-5, 9: Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.

Then compare it to 1 Thess. 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

So who are these holy ones.. and how is it that the kingdom is on earth but you state some are raptured into heaven... Perhaps you are reading to many H. Lindsay books...???

1 Cor. 15:52...in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead are raised.. the living are changed. This does not speak of the raising of those alive at all. They are changed.. made new creatures...
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,384 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
How is it that you think these verses, in a letter written to specific people, can possibly apply to you? Paul was specifically addressing the peoples concern that their loved ones would miss out on the glory of God because they were dead... Paul states in verse 18 that they should not worry because dead or alive they will be with the Lord when the day comes.

So did you know Paul? Are you afraid that those you love who are killed for being a christian are not going to be with you when christ returns? Of course not... because this letter was to specific people.. not to all generations.

The whole rapture doctrine rests on the verse in 1 Thess. (4:17)...

This "last trumpet" corresponds to Revelation 11:15-18 where the earth is the final destination of those you say are raptured... And tell me .. once you are raptured where do you go? We know that Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives .. does he just send all the raptured people up to heaven alive?
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Please....we who are alive and remain, that generation is not alive now is it? so should I take no notice of Romans or Corinthians because it was not written to me? how stupid a doctrine is that? I take ALL scripture to be for me [for one purpose or another even if for edification only] but this is a point of doctrine here concerning the coming again of Christ. He didn't come in Paul's day did He? then the teaching is for when He DOES come.

Do you know where heaven is? I sure don't. But if you don't understand plain and simple words of scripture what will be the point in trying to debate more complex doctrines like the millennial reign?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
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Please....we who are alive and remain, that generation is not alive now is it? so should I take no notice of Romans or Corinthians because it was not written to me? how stupid a doctrine is that? I take ALL scripture to be for me [for one purpose or another even if for edification only] but this is a point of doctrine here concerning the coming again of Christ. He didn't come in Paul's day did He? then the teaching is for when He DOES come.
So you believe that Jesus simply told them about it so it could be written down for a generation 2000 years later? So you believe that Jesus was just kidding when he told them they would be persecuted and killed for the word of God? Was Christ just being facetious when he stated to be ready or else? He said these things to actual people standing in front of him... yet you think it didn't apply to them at all? Please.. why not just dictate these things to a scribe if it didn't apply to the generation he spoke to? Did this happen when Paul was alive? To answer that you must first bring proof that the rapture is as you say it is... the phrase "caught up" does not in anyway convey the fictional H. Lindsay "rapture".. that is not in the bible at all.

Quote:
Do you know where heaven is? I sure don't. But if you don't understand plain and simple words of scripture what will be the point in trying to debate more complex doctrines like the millennial reign?
There is no such thing as heaven... God is too big to be confined to one "heaven" as he is said to fill the heavens and the earth.. he is spirit... not one that can be confined in a body or church or world. He is bigger than that. So even if you disagree with me about that... tell me why you think the reward for being in Christ is to get to heaven.. where in the bible does it state that the reward for belief in Christ is heaven?

There is nothing complex about the bible.. it is very straightforward when you take it as it was written and stop trying to apply it to you 2000 years after it was written.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,384 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What does the verse mean to you? You seem to think that caught up means raptured.. but it simply cannot.. Take a look at Zechariah 14:3-5, 9: Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.

Then compare it to 1 Thess. 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

So who are these holy ones.. and how is it that the kingdom is on earth but you state some are raptured into heaven... Perhaps you are reading to many H. Lindsay books...???

1 Cor. 15:52...in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead are raised.. the living are changed. This does not speak of the raising of those alive at all. They are changed.. made new creatures...
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Rapture is a state of utter ecstacy and I never said anything about being raptured into heaven, I can only go as far as he bible says "gathering to meet the Lord in the clouds" what happens from there on in is another matter but wherever the Lord will be I will be with Him "so shall we ever be with the Lord" and I WILL be in rapture. I have no interest in the speculations of Darby or Lindsay. If the Lord is in the clouds, and we are caught up to meet Him we are raised. All that is written in simple to understand language.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:38 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,422 posts, read 29,555,108 times
Reputation: 29927
Quote:
Originally Posted by the totton linnet View Post
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rapture is a state of utter ecstacy and i never said anything about being raptured into heaven, i can only go as far as he bible says "gathering to meet the lord in the clouds" what happens from there on in is another matter but wherever the lord will be i will be with him "so shall we ever be with the lord" and i will be in rapture. I have no interest in the speculations of darby or lindsay. If the lord is in the clouds, and we are caught up to meet him we are raised. All that is written in simple to understand language.
amen!!!!
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
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Rapture is a state of utter ecstacy and I never said anything about being raptured into heaven, I can only go as far as he bible says "gathering to meet the Lord in the clouds" what happens from there on in is another matter but wherever the Lord will be I will be with Him "so shall we ever be with the Lord" and I WILL be in rapture. I have no interest in the speculations of Darby or Lindsay. If the Lord is in the clouds, and we are caught up to meet Him we are raised. All that is written in simple to understand language.
Then you agree that your rapture came when you were saved and realized the grace of God in your life.. ecstasy... And floating up into the clouds is not necessary in reading the verse.. it could also mean a state of ecstasy and being with the Lord from then on... couldn't it? Yet you state that you will literally float into the air? How is it that no one just floats into the air but you believe Jesus will make that happen...

Also, do you think that what you have gone through as a christian is the most important generation in christian history? If you were to pick the generation that did the most work and suffered the most in Christian history what generation would that be?

Because it is THAT generation that would be the one to be appropriate for Jesus' return... or do you think that your generation deserves to be snatched away?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,384 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you believe that Jesus simply told them about it so it could be written down for a generation 2000 years later? So you believe that Jesus was just kidding when he told them they would be persecuted and killed for the word of God? Was Christ just being facetious when he stated to be ready or else? He said these things to actual people standing in front of him... yet you think it didn't apply to them at all? Please.. why not just dictate these things to a scribe if it didn't apply to the generation he spoke to? Did this happen when Paul was alive? To answer that you must first bring proof that the rapture is as you say it is... the phrase "caught up" does not in anyway convey the fictional H. Lindsay "rapture".. that is not in the bible at all.



There is no such thing as heaven... God is too big to be confined to one "heaven" as he is said to fill the heavens and the earth.. he is spirit... not one that can be confined in a body or church or world. He is bigger than that. So even if you disagree with me about that... tell me why you think the reward for being in Christ is to get to heaven.. where in the bible does it state that the reward for belief in Christ is heaven?

There is nothing complex about the bible.. it is very straightforward when you take it as it was written and stop trying to apply it to you 2000 years after it was written.
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Are you drunk or something, just look at how senseless your reply is, When Jesus cried out to the crowd "is any man athirst? let him come to Me and drink" do you think it was writen down by scribes just for that generation that stood before Him? His words WAS written down for me not for the folk to whom He was speaking, they were there, they heard Him first hand, THEY did not need to have it written down but I did.

And I take literally for me the word Jesus spoke about persecution.

Would you like to count up how many times the bible talks about heaven? as a real place often spoken about as contrasted with earth?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
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Are you drunk or something, just look at how senseless your reply is, When Jesus cried out to the crowd "is any man athirst? let him come to Me and drink" do you think it was writen down by scribes just for that generation that stood before Him? His words WAS written down for me not for the folk to whom He was speaking, they were there, they heard Him first hand, THEY did not need to have it written down but I did.

And I take literally for me the word Jesus spoke about persecution.

Would you like to count up how many times the bible talks about heaven? as a real place often spoken about as contrasted with earth?
You can believe what you wish... I am simply stating that when Jesus was talking to people about a persecution to come there REALLY was one.. Christians were killed left and right.. The romans surrounded the city and many people died.. Even Paul himself was one that persecuted Christians.. yet you think that all applies to you? Then you don't have a proper grasp of the history of that time...

The biblical word used for heaven is also a state of mind or simply the air above us.. there is no reason (unless you believe greek mythology) that the heaven they speak of is the abode of the gods/God.
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