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Old 11-29-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. It is a false teaching which leads many down a "feel good" path.
If most pastors taught enduring tribulation to the end they would probably lose most of their congregation.
More pastors need to be teaching the truth (which most people don't want to hear) pre tribulation is real and is Biblical.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
More pastors need to be teaching the truth (which most people don't want to hear) pre tribulation is real and is Biblical.

Gideon said Pre-tribulationism is real but it is far from the truth. Neither is is biblical, but rather it is Darby's corrupted doctrine, a doctrine of demons. Pre-tribulationism is not a literal-verbal plenary interpretation, but Post-tribulationism is. Can you show us where you see a pre-tribulation rapture in scripture? I have yet to find anyone that can. BTW, most people believe in pre-tribulationism because they do not know better and have not studied their bibles on this matter; most pastors believe this false doctrine and teach this heresy to their churches. People dare not question the pastor's authority, he is God's annointed vessel and only he can see truth and is wise enough to understand it, so they think.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:35 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. It is a false teaching which leads many down a "feel good" path.
If most pastors taught enduring tribulation to the end they would probably lose most of their congregation.
Gideon said, they would actually lose their retirements and jobs from the associated movements, heirarchies, and affiliated supports from like churches would end. Missionaries would lose support from their mission boards for going awal on their statement of faith, regarding pre-tribulationism. They would lose their retirements, and all churches would drop them. This makes one wonder just how much of their work is really profitable to the kingdom of God, not much I would venture to say. I think we are doing more than most missionaries here on the web. At least we are not spreading lies concerning the kingdom. It is like trying to tell the Roman Catholic Heirarchy that celibacy is wrong and not biblical for a bishop, pastor, overseer. As the Roman Catholic Church is stuck in vain traditions of men which go completely contrary to biblical truth, so does pre-tribulationism go contrary to recorded truth in God's word and such who follow, teach, and promote this doctrine are stuck in a heretical, vain tradition, created by heretic men as Darby, Scofield, the Jesuits, and the illuminists.. Paul warns us of the dangers of following a pre-tribulation rapture error in II Thessalonians 2. This false doctrine is the single most wicked lie in our churches today. I would like for anyone to show us where the pre-tribulation rapture is. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that "the day of Christ is at hand." This means it has not happened and will not until all the prophesies Paul showed us in II Thes 2 are fulfilled.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-29-2009 at 10:43 PM..
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:47 AM
 
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There is no pre-tribulation rapture for the circumcision Jewish believers under Peter.

There is a pre-tribulation rapture or snatching away to meet the Lord in the air for believers of the nations.

The great tribulation, also called "Jacob's trouble" is not dealing with believers of the nations at all. Rather, it is specifically dealing only with the Jewish believers and how the NATIONS treat THEM during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There is no pre-tribulation rapture for the circumcision Jewish believers under Peter.

There is a pre-tribulation rapture or snatching away to meet the Lord in the air for believers of the nations.

The great tribulation, also called "Jacob's trouble" is not dealing with believers of the nations at all. Rather, it is specifically dealing only with the Jewish believers and how the NATIONS treat THEM during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation.
Gideon said How do you surmise that there is a pretribulation rapture. It is found nowhere in scripture. Many are starting to realize now that this was just nothing more than pardosis and church tradition.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There is no pre-tribulation rapture for the circumcision Jewish believers under Peter.

There is a pre-tribulation rapture or snatching away to meet the Lord in the air for believers of the nations.

The great tribulation, also called "Jacob's trouble" is not dealing with believers of the nations at all. Rather, it is specifically dealing only with the Jewish believers and how the NATIONS treat THEM during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation.
Where do you find in scripture how to split that up like that?

Are their two tribulations? Wouldn't one tribulation period be in 60-70Ad when the Jews lost the city of Jerusalem and their temple? That was a pretty big event to overlook so easily..and it was in the generation of those Jesus said "this generation" to... Why do you not feel that is a valid tribulation period?
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 506,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Where do you find in scripture how to split that up like that?

Are their two tribulations? Wouldn't one tribulation period be in 60-70Ad when the Jews lost the city of Jerusalem and their temple? That was a pretty big event to overlook so easily..and it was in the generation of those Jesus said "this generation" to... Why do you not feel that is a valid tribulation period?
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 506,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
*
How can something that happened 2,000 years ago be fulfilment of end-times prophecy?

There IS no escape from the great tribulation [except for the Jews, that's a new thread I will start I hope] Jesus said they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death.

And there is no escape from it "you will be hated by all for My name's sake" "hated in every nation" even your own household and family for "parents will deliver their children up" and "children their parents" if these were Jewish parents by giving up their children they would be betraying their own Jewishness, no this is the church.

There has never been a persecution so awful and so far reaching as this, not in all history. That is why it is called the great tribulation.

The church should be looking to martyrdom not rapture.

But a new strength will come, like Stephen our faces will shine with shekinah glory, many will be saved, as Paul was through Stephen's witness. A new inner joy. God will be with us in a new way and we will know His presence.

This is easy to answer. What happened 2000 years ago is the fulfillment of End-Times prophecy because they were living in the End. The End-Times was the end of the Old Covenant Age, and the Last Days were the Last Days of the Old Covenant. We are NOT living in the End-Times or Last Days. We are now Living in the Eternal Age of the Kingdom, WORLD WITHOUT END (Eph.3:21, Isa. 9:7)
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
This is easy to answer. What happened 2000 years ago is the fulfillment of End-Times prophecy because they were living in the End. The End-Times was the end of the Old Covenant Age, and the Last Days were the Last Days of the Old Covenant. We are NOT living in the End-Times or Last Days. We are now Living in the Eternal Age of the Kingdom, WORLD WITHOUT END (Eph.3:21, Isa. 9:7)
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:26 AM
 
392 posts, read 470,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
This is easy to answer. What happened 2000 years ago is the fulfillment of End-Times prophecy because they were living in the End. The End-Times was the end of the Old Covenant Age, and the Last Days were the Last Days of the Old Covenant. We are NOT living in the End-Times or Last Days. We are now Living in the Eternal Age of the Kingdom, WORLD WITHOUT END (Eph.3:21, Isa. 9:7)

Gideon said,
Gideon said, First of all you both seem to be off your rockers, as there is no such meaning applicable to Ephesians 3:21, You have grossly misinterpreted this verse. Yes some old time prophecies were fulfilled but not all. These are some that have not been fulfilled below. We are living in the eternal development of the new covenant as more saints are being added to the kingdom. This addition of saints to the kingdom will continue until the last day of the Great Tribulation. The tribulation started 2000 years ago when Christ rose from the dead. Pentecost was a fulfillment of OT prophecies from Joel in part; some of Joel still has yet to be fulfilled, as the whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord Shall be saved, and the sun and moon shall be darkened before The Great Day of the Lord. As we stated before the darkening represents the end of the final age before Christ takes over earth to rule; Satan currentily is the prince and power of the air. This has not been fulfilled. What you two seem to have a problem with is recognizing the fact that the tribulation the saints suffer started 2000 years ago and continues until The Day of the Lord, when Christ returns in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that obey not the words of the Gospel or of His prophecy but rather want to make up what may seem convenient to them. You also seem to fail to take note that the tribulation grows worse as the day approaches and culminates into The Great Tribulation, which is the final 3.5 yers of Satan's rule on earth.

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
The Woman Persecuted


13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.


Now we will begin to bridge this all together to prove a post-tribulation rapture, fact. I would challenge you to read this in detail, so that we will have a better understanding of it as we go along. Read it over and over again, while attempting to uncover its meaning. We will also cover other terminologies that represent the timing and character of the post-tribulation second coming of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1 (King James Version)


2 Thessalonians 1


1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Your Obvious Misinterpretaion of Facts

Yes the tribulation started long ago, but it continues to grow until the end. Here in this chapter we see a very obvious flop-up of words by the pre-trib camp. Here Paul tells the believers that their faith has grown exceedingly. We know how faith comes about: first we know that faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I believe God applies that individually and differently in our lives but with the same basic technique. What may build faith in me may seem unacceptable to others; I am not saying that reading the word of God does not do this, but rather where and how we read the word may differ from person to person. God has given each a master plan for their lives to build one's faith. We need be careful in being judgmental of others lives and how God works individually with people; God speaks to man or a woman individually. So tribulation works patience and hope. If we have trouble or tribulations this is good as we have a need to developed hope in order to overcome the troubles or tribulation. As God speaks and delivers us from whatever trouble we may encounter, we gain faith in God to carry us through anything. Hence tribulation brought on by Satan is a good thing God allows to build our faith.

Yet the pre-tribulation notion or reasoning is the opposite of this philosophy; it carries and escapist ideology with it. They think we are to escape Satan's wrath, troubles, and persecution and conclude falsely that it is God's wrath. Further, they have misrepresented it and titled it as such. This chapter 1 of II Thessalonians teaches us the opposite of what they proclaim as truth, as does the entire Bible. God allows the trials and tribulation in our lives to build stronger soldiers for his command, soldiers that will not be intimidated by Satan's tribulations or his wrath he brings against those that love God. The escapist mentality is seen in a wishful, pre-tribulation rapture, not seen in scripture.

Why does Paul tell them their faith has grown exceedingly? The answer is simple. Paul knows they have suffered tribulation and he knows and sees the end result of that tribulation they suffer. Paul also knows that the end result of that is spiritual growth. He wrote about it regularly to teach us. So how in the world can they come up with the opposite of what is taught in scripture, through and through. The answer is found in II Thes 2; they have a love for unrighteousness in some cases or have been deceived. Some will find truth eventually as the Spirit will bear truth to them; others will have a love for error, inevitably and will never find the truth. Paul has clearly told us this in II Thes 2 if you recall.

As we will see, not only does this chapter 1 of II Thes further debunk the pre-tribulation heresy, but it also gives much hope to the saint suffering troubles and persecutions from its perpitrators. God does not lie, and we will see how they have taken this chapter also way out of context. Unto the saint, the troubles, though painful, are good. We will now cover the remaining portion of this chapter in detail.


Romans 5
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

James 1

3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Galatians 5

6b but faith which worketh by love.





3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Beginning in verse 4 we see thilpis the Greek word for tribulation. It means an experience that tests one's endurance, patience and faith. The suffering God allows the church to go through is allowed by God to test them of their endurance, patience and faith. Paul glories or speaks proudly of the church of Thessalonica in all the other churches because he is admiring their faith which is demonstrated by their endurance in tribulations and persecutions. That is a precisely what verse 4 says.

Verse 5 tells us that God's allowance of these troubles (persecutions and tribulations) is a manifested token of God's righteous Judgment that shall come against the ungodly bringing this trouble, the persecution to the church. He further tells us that the endurance of this affliction is a manifestation of their salvation. In other words, since they can endure it; it is proof they are saved. In opposite retrospect, had they not endured, they obviously are not part of God's kingdom. Do not misunderstand these statements; what I am not saying is that this endurance of tribulation saves them, but rather it is proof they are saved. The unsaved simply will not endure. This becomes clearer in the following verses.

In verse 6 we see that God will recompense judgment on those that trouble the church. He will recompense tribulation on our persecutor. The timing of the recompense brought against our enemies is crucial to the demonstration and proving of a post-tribulation fact. Further the time frame the church is to endure the tribulation is more proof of the post-tribulation fact as we will see.

In verse seven we see the opposite of what is taught by pre-tribulationists to be true. The rest from persecution does not occur until the Lord Jesus is revealed. Yet they, the pre-tribulationists claim it comes seven years earlier in a secret, hidden, nowhere mentioned in scripture rapture that flies them away. Now reading this by itself does not strike the meaning so strongly, until the word revealed is translated. The word revealed comes from the Greek word apokolypcia. The word, "Apocalypse," is the disclosure and "revelation of Christ when he appears in the fullness of his power". This is very obviously the word being used. It snuffs out the claim to a pre-tribulation return of Christ here. Yet, they claim it is here in II Thes 1. In other word, while the meanings of the words here tells us Jesus is making his disclosure and revelation of power with his apokolypcia here; the pre-tribulationists camps continue to falsely claim this is a secret mysterious coming no one knows about and that none will see. Here we see the same event about to occur in Revelation 11.



[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


We see verses 8 and 9 telling us the same things also. There is absolutely nothing secret about Jesus coming back with angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those that trouble us until the time of his revelation; the vengeance is poured out in flaming fire on those that obeyed not the Gospel of his Word; who also know not God or simply are not his children. The most important thing to notice is the rest from the persecution and troubles does not occur until Jesus is revealed or until his apokolypcia,which occurs at the end of the GT. This debunks the pretribulation rapture entirely.

This is very obviously the wrath of God. God's wrath comes at the end of the GT and not during. The pretribulation camp makes a gross error in calling Satan's wrath which occurs during the tribulation, God's wrath, which occurs at the end of the GT. Satan and his minions persecuting the church does not constitute the wrath of God. God's wrath comes when Jesus is revealed, in flaming fire taking vengeance on the churches enemies, as depicted in verses 8 and 9.

These that trouble us until the end of the GT, shall be punishes with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the Glory of his power. The Glory of this power is the power of the resurrection. While we receive rest in the resurrection of his likeness, they the wicked shall be punished in the Lake of fire. On that day Christ shall be glorified because we believed everything Paul wrote to us. We are glorified as we are transformed into his likeness on that day. It is that simple. Why do they complicate this so much. THe answer is they refuse to receive the love of the truth. They have pleasure in unrighteousness or they have pleasure in doctrinal errors. Some of these are not of us and time will reveal that.


Now let's see more about the coming of Jesus, in the terminology. Remember we mentioned in II Thes 2 that his coming, or Parousia, meant his arrival. NOW Let’s cover another word to sort of wrap up II Thes 1 and 2. The other word is epiphany. We see the word coming in the Greek can also represent his epiphany or brilliant Shekinah, as the sun shines... This word epiphany is seen in the end of the chapter in verse 8.


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) or arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him; this verse merely means his arrival while our gathering together unto him is the resurrection of the dead and translation of the living to meet the Lord in the air.

In verse 8 we see the word epiphany being used. What is says is that the brilliant Shekinah or sun like glow of Christ returning or of his coming (epiphany) will destroy Satan. This is the blazing fire we see in II Thes 1 that destroys the wicked one, and wicked ones whom follow Satan and his lies. In other words it is the same event being described with different details. God does this often throughout scripture. Pre-tribulationism has made a great error in calling the two descriptions of the obvious same event two separate events. So there is nothing secret or hidden with Jesus returning as in fire to destroy his enemies. That is a very powerful statement. We must remember our God is a consuming fire that hates evil, sin, and evil doers with a consuming passion. Deu 4:24 says, For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Here are both descriptions of the same event being describe with different details. Here we see angels also, while in II Thes 2 we are only told his fire like epiphany will destroy Satan.
The same event in II Thes 1
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (epiphany).

Now we can continue to build the bridge that will also connect I Thes with II Thes to prove they are exactly the same event being described with different details of that single event. There are several words to do this, but we will focus on two or three especially. The last word we will bring up is "apentesis..." This is a very important word as we will see.

So far what we have learned is the epiphany, parousia, and the revelation or apokolypcia are all the same single event. It can be summarized as this: Christ's arival or Parousia, will be an out shining brilliance and fire or epiphany, that will destroy Satan and the evil ones, at his revelation or apokolypcia or on the day His wrath is poured on the wicked of mankind, at the end of the Great Tribulation. There is no dividing of the event, it is one single event in which we see all his attributes previously prophecied come to fruition, at his revelation, in which he returns with all his power and glorious splendor to glorify the saints and destroy the wicked.



Unfulfilled Prophecies

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

America's Destruction

1 After these things I heard[a] a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord[b] our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

Christ's Return, The Marriage of the Lamb to the CHruch, The Battle of Armegeddon and The Victory of CHrist and the Church

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him

Nearing Babylon's Destruction


6I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

7And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-01-2009 at 07:32 AM..
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