Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If Jesus already came, how come John, when writing Revelation in 93 A.D. was still looking forward to the return of Christ?
Obviously your understanding of "this generation" is flawed.
Hey Eusebius, Did the Kingdom come? Jesus said some would not die until they SAW him come in His Kingdom. You said the Kingdom did not come. Can you explain?
Gideon said this is absolutely taking scripture out of context. Jesus was speaking to the generation that would see the end of the world or time as we know it.
So Jesus thought about what would be written down and canonized later in order to direct this information to you or whatever future generation it is that the end of time falls upon? Rather than it applies to those he was directly speaking to? How do you say that? Sure Jesus could have known that it would be written down and passed on throughout the generations... but why speak it then? Why run around telling people about the end of time and his return if all he needed to do was get someone to write down his words for a future generation? And you say I am taking the scripture out of context? How so?
Quote:
The marker for that generation to be present would be the reformation of Israel, the fig tree nation. Once Israel became reformed this would mark the final generation.
Yet isn't it true that Israel had already begun a reformation when they began to return from exile from Babylon? So that Jesus' generation was such that the Jews were living in the promised land again?
Quote:
It would be impossible for him to be speaking of that generation as being the final one that would pass, because they did not see the abomination desolation, neither have we.
What do you mean they didn't see the abomination? There could have been several.. only the generation that saw it would know. Luke 21:20 enlightens us as to what is before the abomination: "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
So around 69AD when the Roman armies surrounded the city so that no communication nor supplies could go in or out.. that would be the sign that was talked about... For more clarification read this article: The Day and The Hour - Max R. King (http://www.presence.tv/cms/lpj_vol15_1_dayandhour.php - broken link)
Quote:
Further, they did not see the sun become as sackcloth or a burlap sack covering; the moon did not and has not become as Blood. Certainly the stars have not fallen in the blackness of space as a backdrop setting.
All of these things never happened literally in any other prophecies that we know were fulfilled in the OT.. so it is figurative language for judgment. Mountains splitting in two..etc. Not literal just prophetic language for judgment.
Quote:
Babylon the Great has not been destroyed.
So who do you think Babylon the Great is? Didn't the Jews who inhabited Jerusalem in Christ's time just come from Babylon?
Quote:
Most importantly, Jesus has not come to reign yet.
When Jesus was on earth and while the apostles are preaching in his name he is reigning...why do you think he was called king of the jews... His reign began the moment he started his ministry and was to end when he had put all enemies under him... So are you saying that Jesus has not come to reign again yet?
Quote:
We could go on and on, but needless to say, many are in agreement that your interpretations are very flawed and do not measure up when compared to scripture. The angels have not gathered the elect via rapture from the four corners of the earth.
The angels do not gather the elect via rapture anywhere in scripture anyway so that is your interpolation there...
Here are the verses:
Mark 13:26-27“At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Zechariah 2:6 "Ho there! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens," declares the LORD "Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!"
So who is the Daughter of Babylon? Jerusalem perhaps?
Quote:
The last trumpet has not sounded yet either. You are way off base. True the signs began during the times of the disciples, but they are just now reaching a climax. Now we will begin to see the end of the last generation that would not pass until the final signs are completed. Israel becoming a nation is the first sign marked by the reign of Adolph Hitler, whom killed many martyrs. This took us out of the beginning of sorrows. Now we will see such a compaign of slaughter on a worldwide scale. Then the heavens will be darkened and change. This will be the final sign before Christ returns in power and Glory.
None of this is even in the bible... you are adding things. You can believe what you want.. but not one thing here is biblical.
Quote:
I have salvation now; for to be abscent from my body is to be present with the Lord. We will be with him whether we live or die. If we die, he will bring us with when he returns, in order for us to receive our immortalization in our dead bodies on earth, for such the dead in Christ rise first. He brings them with from heaven, all dead saints from all ages, from Adam to the last martyr. Christ has already saved our souls; He will save our bodies when he returns to earth for his bride. That is the marriage of the Lamb, when the church raises to newness of life to join her savior in an eternal state of reign, on earth. For me to live is Christ and for me to die is gain!!!
Actually you are mistaken again. One cannot have salvation if Christ has not come a second time.. it is shown here:
1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
First they belong to THE DAY and they have the HOPE of salvation as a helmet...
Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
So the revelation of Jesus Christ is their hope for Grace..
1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
If you think that the Last time, the coming of Jesus Christ, etc. has not occurred, then you only hope for salvation.. you cannot have it as is established by these verses.
Quote:
This certainly has not occured yet!!! This is the final three and half years, when the antichrist wages war on the saints. That has not happended and the begginning of this time period will be marked by the obamanation that makes desolate or when Satan enters the temple, sets up an image, and demands that Israel and all nations bow to it.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
And yet you miss that verse 33 shows that THIS generation shall not pass until all these are fulfilled... is Jesus lying to the people he speaks to? or is he telling the truth that it is within the disciples generation (THIS generation) that will see ALL those things be fulfilled?
You are not catching that Jesus was speaking to these people. He did not dictate the bible so it could be written down. His words were written down after his death. These are the sayings of Jesus. Yet you tell me that he said to others that all would be fulfilled in THIS generation yet he meant a generation far off in the future?
Parable of the wheat and the tares........Tares are bound FIRST and burned, then the wheat is gathered in the barn. Sorry folks
Actually doesn't it say both are gathered at the same time and then separated? Because you can gather the tares first and risk damaging the wheat... right?
You are mistaken... Revelation itself tells us what you say are not true...
I will go through Revlation 1:1-9 with you and you tell me if what I say is not true...
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
The reason for writing this book is to show Christ' servants (of which John is one) by sending an angel/vision..
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John saw it.. ie was there during Christ's time on earth, so we see it had to have been a disciple. Thus his age at the time he was with Christ must have been near 30 when men were considered "true adults."
3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
So the book is written for the contemporaries of John..fellow servants of Christ and they should take it to heart because the time is near. Not far off.. not just some of it... they should read it because it is NEAR.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
You see in verse 6 another reference to US... the servants of Christ including John.. writing to the 7 churches in Asia.. actually what we call Asia minor where John the apostle is purported to have gone to establish these churches. You can read more here: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_the_Apostle : "Tradition holds that he went to Ephesus with the Virgin Mary and founded several churches in Asia minor."
7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Even those who pierced him.. now this could mean even though they are long dead they will see him coming.. but there is no real reason not to think that since the churches, the servants of Christ, and John are all to take these things to heart.. that this would be they are dead while the peoples of the earth are alive... He is still talking about the present.. when he was writing.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” One Like a Son of Man 9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Now in verse 9 you can see that it is patient endurance of a common suffering that John is experiencing in his own time... that he was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and testimony of Jesus.. does that sound like he was on sabbatical in a monastery?
The website (link) I posted above puts it this way: "Revelation adds that its author was on the island of Patmos "for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus," (Revelation 1:9), meaning that he had become the "confessor" who had apparently been exiled to Patmos on account of his faith."
So it was either imprisonment or exile.. either way he was still preaching and being persecuted..
Now in light of those clues alone can you still support a late date? The ones who pierced him.. either referring to the guards who actually did the deed or the Jewish Leadership who caused it in the first place... would have been long dead by 93 AD.. so what is the purpose of stating this if they were dead already? And furthermore.. can you picture people trying to exile and/or persecute a 93 year old man?
Gideon said, There is no mistake here. You have a big habit of putting words into people's mouths which they did not speak. I never said the angel did not take John up to the third heaven and show him things which must come to pass. I simply stated he wrote Revelation on the Isle of Patmos, at a ripe old age. Do you deny this to be true?
The book is written for the church, and not only for the people of his time period; it is written for all generation of believers, the people that would follow that time period, specifically for the entire church. Most of the things in Revelation have not taken place yet. The seven churches represent the seven states in which the catholic church,( or universal body of all true believers) belong to. These churches could be protestant, Roman Catholic, Methodist or whatever. They have seven characters as defined in scripture and have seven angels whom represent their light in a dark world. They are called to repentence by Christ. So these churches continue until Christ returns, which he has not. It, the church grew, spread, and went from Jerusalem to Judea and then to the uttermost parts of the earth.
The ones whom see him coming, whom pierced his side are the Roman soldiers. I ask a question earlier, how can those whom have pierced him see him 2000 years plus later when they have died? The answer is simple. I have answered it before. The only reasonable explanation is they have risen in the first resurrection; which means they are believers. They also are some of the ones whom Christ brings with Him when he returns. They became saved at some point and accepted Christ, 2000 years ago, more or less. One of them even said at the crucifixion, "Truly this is the Son of God." Most likely that was his conversion experience. So when Christ comes back for his church he resurrects the ones whom pierced his side with all the other saints, as these soldiers became saints also.. This even further proves a post-tribulation rapture. As we are told, He cometh with Clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they which pierced him, in his side with a swords, the Roman soldiers. Surely, you do not believe Jesus has come already, Do you? If so, that is very flawed, something I have never heard of. This is taking scripture way out of context. As it is extremely evident that many of the prophesied events have yet to occur. We have not even arrived at the tribulation or Great Tribulation for that matter.
I understand how Paul and desciples may have thought Jesus was coming in their time, as it is depicted in their writings, but we must take all into context and realize, all these writings are for the entire church age, which ends at the end of the GT. Paul said, we shall all be changed in a moment a twinking of the eye. When you read Paul's writings it appears as though the thought he was going to be changed and not resurrected from the dead. He thought he would be alive when Jesus would return, but we all know he was killed for his faith. So what exactly is your point, cut the chase.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So are you trying to tell us Jesus has come and that the Revelation is meant for the desciples and the church setting in John's time or what?
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-27-2009 at 02:24 PM..
Actually doesn't it say both are gathered at the same time and then separated? Because you can gather the tares first and risk damaging the wheat... right?
Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Gideon said, There is no mistake here. You have a big habit of putting words into people's mouths which they did not speak. I never said the angel did not take John up to the third heaven and show him things which must come to pass. I simply stated he wrote Revelation on the Isle of Patmos, at a ripe old age. Do you deny this to be true?
How am I putting words in your mouth? You stated that he was protected in the monastery on the Isle of Patmos...Here is word for word what you stated..
Quote:
Gideon says History and tradition have it that John was on the Isle of Patmos, not imprisoned, but rather in a monastery typesetting, writing the book of Revelation at very ripe age, and sheltered setting.
So you are saying he was on sabbatical.. protected, sheltered.. that is simply not true. He was being persecuted, exiled, imprisoned. At a ripe old age as you admit would be any age after 55 when one exceeds the life expectancy for that era. So he would have been considered "a ripe old age" in 60AD and beyond.. don't you agree?
Quote:
The book is written for the church, and not only for the people of his time period;
No again that is not what scripture says.. it is to 7 specific churches listed in the next chapter...Rev. 2-3.. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. All historical churches in Asia minor that John established. That is who is addressed as the 7 churches.. where do you find evidence that it is written to all people even those to come?
Quote:
it is written for all generation of believers, the people that would follow that time period, specifically for the entire church. Most of the things in Revelation have not taken place yet. The seven churches represent the seven states in which the catholic church,( or universal body of all true believers) belong to. These churches could be protestant, Roman Catholic, Methodist or whatever. They have seven characters as defined in scripture and have seven angels whom represent their light in a dark world. They are called to repentence by Christ. So these churches continue until Christ returns, which he has not. It, the church grew, spread, and went from Jerusalem to Judea and then to the uttermost parts of the earth.
How then do you explain that John speaks of things past (Rev. 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.), things now and things to take place later? It is clearly shown before each part what is past, present, and future... Speaking about the future starts in Chapter 4: After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
So you are mistaken... the future things he speaks of have nothing to do with the letter being addressed to the 7 churches.. it truly was written to be received by those certain churches and applies to their future not to all the churches or the seven types of Christian churches... how is it you read all that into the scripture.. Can you back that up with scripture?
Quote:
The ones whom see him coming, whom pierced his side are the Roman soldiers. I ask a question earlier, how can those whom have pierced him see him 2000 years plus later when they have died? The answer is simple. I have answered it before. The only reasonable explanation is they have risen in the first resurrection; which means they are believers.
Actually the only reasonable explanation that fits with all scripture is that Jesus came back while they still lived yet you totally disregard this as an option because of your error in the phrases "coming soon", "near", "this generation".. etc.
Quote:
They also are some of the ones whom Christ brings with Him when he returns. They became saved at some point and accepted Christ, 2000 years ago, more or less. One of them even said at the crucifixion, "Truly this is the Son of God." Most likely that was his conversion experience. So when Christ comes back for his church he resurrects the ones whom pierced his side with all the other saints, as these soldiers became saints also.. This even further proves a post-tribulation rapture. As we are told, He cometh with Clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they which pierced him, in his side with a swords, the Roman soldiers. Surely, you do not believe Jesus has come already, Do you? If so, that is very flawed, something I have never heard of. This is taking scripture way out of context. As it is extremely evident that many of the prophesied events have yet to occur. We have not even arrived at the tribulation or Great Tribulation for that matter.
Scripture is clear that the tribulation warnings were specifically meant to warn people who heard Jesus and the disciples speak.. You are assuming alot as in scripture when it is not.
Tell me your basis (scriptural) for your belief that Jesus meant a future generation and not the one he was speaking to?
Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Stay busy in the Word!
Okay so the same day of harvest applies but the order of the tares and wheat are different. What happens to the wheat? Obviously the tares are burned... The wheat go into the barn... but isnt the wheat separated from the chaff of the wheat and the chaff is burned? Anyway you look at it I can't figure out why you even stated this.. what does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture?
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,962 posts, read 5,196,787 times
Reputation: 951
Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture
It is a false doctrine as the Scripture plainly declare and others, quite well I might add, have shown on here.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
