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Old 05-17-2007, 04:27 AM
 
2,952 posts, read 81,929 times
Reputation: 658
It is up to Jesus however the only guide we have is the Bible. One can look to the Bible to follow his plan for salvation. Anything outside that is superfluous.
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Old 05-17-2007, 06:58 AM
 
743 posts, read 1,505,089 times
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Actually, Spunky, we also have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition along w/ Sacred Scripture. The critical difference is that Catholics accept both, while most Protestants only accept Sacred Scripture.

I'm curious on your thoughts of what early Christians did for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever written down?
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Jersey Shore
1,574 posts, read 3,141,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
Oh dear!

I'm a Christian.............you're not!
I'm a better Christian than you!
JC likes us more than he likes you!
God meant that for us, not you!
You've interpreted that wrong, we haven't.
We know 'the truth', you don't!
Our truth is greater than yours!
I'm a 'true' Christian but you're not!
You say X but we know it's Y.
You're going to hell and I'm not!

You'd think they were talking to atheist but this is CHRISTIAN TO CHRISTIAN!!
Atheists, aren't you glad you don't have to contend with this every waking minute of our short time on this planet?
Pladecalvo, it's funny how you're all for open debate until it's between two
Christians.

No one here has been disrespectful.

I found your last comment quite funnny "Atheists, aren't you glad you don't have to contend with this every waking minute of our short time on this planet?" You spend all your time on these threads and you're not even a believer.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:49 AM
 
740 posts, read 1,279,887 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I'd like to once again ask the question:

Catholicism is considered the start of Christianity. So, if the Protestant and Lutheran movements were between 1400-1600 years later, how are they so right if they were the last ones to come along? I mean what happened to all those well-behaved Catholics in that time period before the "Real Christian" movements. It was still in the NT time frame so what makes it so different now? Just curious.
Actually, Baptist, or AnaBaptist were considered the start of Christianity. The have been around since Christ ministry started. With John the Baptist as "The voice of one crying in the wilderness" . The Catholic church was fragmented until early 300 A.D. when the Hierarcy of the Church was established. In 869 the Catholic church split into Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic. The Lutheren movement came in the 1530's as a branch off of the Roman Catholic Church. There is a small booklet that gives the history in great detail. It is called the "Trail of Blood" by J.M Carroll.

The history of the Baptist was written in blood. They were the hated people of the Dark Ages. Their preachers and people where put into prison, and untold numbers were put to death. The world has never seen anything to compare with the suffering, the persecutions, heaped upon Baptist by the Catholic Hierarchy diring the Dark Ages.

Actually, this book is one of the best discriptions of the fundamental differences between Baptist and Catholics. The Catholic history toward Baptist was much like the High Jewish councel against Christ.

When the Hierarchy was formed in the Catholic church... or when Constantine removed Christ as the head of the church and placed himself there, began a development which finally resulted into what is now know as the Catholic, or universal church. This was done at the end of the second, or beginning of the third century. Up to the organization of the Hierarchy, all the persecution of Christianity her been done either by Judaism, or Paganism. Now comes a serious change. Christians (in name) begin to persecute Christians. Constantine, desiring to have all Christians join with him in his new idea of a state religion, many conscientiously opposing this serious departure from New Testament teachings, (I.E. a change from "believers baptism" to "infant baptism", salvation by faith to "baptismal regeneration (salvation)", removing Christ as the head of the church) he begins using the power of government to compel. This begin the days and years and even centuries of hard and bitter persecution against all those Christians who were loyal to the original Christ and Apostolic teachings. "believers baptism" to "infant baptism", salvation by faith to "baptismal regeneration (salvation)" These two errors have according to the testimony of well-established history, caused the shedding of more Christian blood, as the centuries have gone by, than all other errors combined, or than possibly have all wars, not connected with persecutions, before World War I.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:55 AM
 
740 posts, read 1,279,887 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post
Actually, Spunky, we also have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition along w/ Sacred Scripture. The critical difference is that Catholics accept both, while most Protestants only accept Sacred Scripture.

I'm curious on your thoughts of what early Christians did for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever written down?
The bible was started within 40 years of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. There were still eye witnesses alive to share.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Saint Simons Island, GA
1,073 posts, read 2,547,855 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa_from_Debary View Post
Call me overly simplistic but it seems to me that it should be up to Jesus Christ to say who is a christian or not as he is the only one who knows that persons heart...

this from the atheist in the crowd...
Ultimately it is. But we are to judge other's who call themselves brothers, and produce rotten fruit. If one is living a sin filled life, and are claiming to be Christian, we are not to even eat with them, that is because one rotten apple.... you get the drill.
We have to and are required to hold each other accountable, there is only one definition for Christian, and it is not a loose one. Either you are or you aren't there is no such thing as almost saved.
MBG
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Saint Simons Island, GA
1,073 posts, read 2,547,855 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post
Actually, Spunky, we also have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition along w/ Sacred Scripture. The critical difference is that Catholics accept both, while most Protestants only accept Sacred Scripture.

I'm curious on your thoughts of what early Christians did for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever written down?
First you are speaking here of the NT, the OT was in existence long before Christ even walked this earth. Second, it did not take hundreds of years to get it written down. The Early Church or the Way, circulated the Epistles, and much Catholic tradition is only a few hundred yeas old. The oldest dates back to 4 century. The Early Christians did fine without it.

Mark 7: 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


I am not saying that traditions are all together useless, but one must look at the origin of such traditions. Are they really from the Early church or did man, in His quest to alter the Truth, to gain control perhaps, so gain power, add them selfishly later?

MBG
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Old 05-17-2007, 10:59 AM
 
2,952 posts, read 81,929 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post
Actually, Spunky, we also have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition along w/ Sacred Scripture. The critical difference is that Catholics accept both, while most Protestants only accept Sacred Scripture.

I'm curious on your thoughts of what early Christians did for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever written down?
I think IBC summed up the answer to your question nicely.

I believe that Catholics have become mired in their "sacred traditions" and man-made rules. Obviously many strongly disagree with my opinion. teaching.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Maine
8,106 posts, read 10,463,035 times
Reputation: 6667
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
...the only guide we have is the Bible.
But the Bible itself contradicts that statement:

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you." (John 16:12-15)

Jesus sent His Church into all the world, not His book. He sent His Church and His Spirit to that Church. One of the sacred gifts of that Church is the Bible. Yes. Amen. But it is not the ONLY gift nor is it the ONLY guide.

In fact, we wouldn't have the Bible at all were it not for the Church. It still baffles me how folks can take the Sacred Scriptures of the Church, rightly affirm them, then condemn the very Church that gave it to them. See the parable I posted above.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Maine
8,106 posts, read 10,463,035 times
Reputation: 6667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibcwife View Post
Actually, Baptist, or AnaBaptist were considered the start of Christianity. The have been around since Christ ministry started. With John the Baptist as "The voice of one crying in the wilderness" . The Catholic church was fragmented until early 300 A.D. when the Hierarcy of the Church was established. In 869 the Catholic church split into Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic. The Lutheren movement came in the 1530's as a branch off of the Roman Catholic Church. There is a small booklet that gives the history in great detail. It is called the "Trail of Blood" by J.M Carroll.

The history of the Baptist was written in blood. They were the hated people of the Dark Ages. Their preachers and people where put into prison, and untold numbers were put to death. The world has never seen anything to compare with the suffering, the persecutions, heaped upon Baptist by the Catholic Hierarchy diring the Dark Ages.

Actually, this book is one of the best discriptions of the fundamental differences between Baptist and Catholics. The Catholic history toward Baptist was much like the High Jewish councel against Christ.

When the Hierarchy was formed in the Catholic church... or when Constantine removed Christ as the head of the church and placed himself there, began a development which finally resulted into what is now know as the Catholic, or universal church. This was done at the end of the second, or beginning of the third century.
I have heard that account before from many dear and sincere Baptists. It's a nice story. But with all due respect, the problem is that there is absolutely no historical evidence for ANY of it. In fact, the history we do have completely contradicts it. Even the Bible contradicts it.
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