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Old 10-29-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,937 times
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Quote:
Two words that are different but mean the very same thing


maybe in modern English, but maybe not in the bible; btw. according to the bible, animals have both soul and spirit (Genesis 1:30, Ecclesiastes 3:19) and the soul is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11).

however the words meaning "soul" have often been translated "life", soul and life are more likely synonyms than soul and spirit, it would made no sense to translate "soul" with "spirit" where the KJV rendered it "life", for the spirit is not in the blood, neither goes the spirit to sheol but returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), while only the soul is said to go sheol.

But I understand neither spirit nor soul as immortal parts dwelling in mortal man, this as I said is Platonist anthropology.
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I went looking for a more visible form for my answer this time.
The Body/Soul/Spirit Question - posted by Christian Research Institute (CRI) - tangle.com
I found this video that is about word-for-word what I believe about the whole question of a "soul AND spirit", or a "soul OR spirit"?
Nice..

It was hard to listen to.. I think the sound is messed up, as I could barely hear it.

I did notice that he starts by defining dichotomy and trichotomy..

Yet his definition seem slightly off: Webster's says it is a division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups.

Trichotomy is the same thing but division of three not two..

So he says that dichotomy is the union of the body and soul..

But trichotomy is union of body, soul, and spirit....

Then he says he is a dichotomist.. in that he believes in body and soul...

What happened to spirit?

After that the audio was really bad.. can you explain to me why you think soul and spirit are the same?
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,937 times
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allow me something to add, unexact translations make it impossible to realize what the bible means with "soul" or spirit

this are the several meanings the KJV translators have given the Hebrew word "nephesch"

Quote:
any, 3; appetite, 2; body, 8; creature, 9; dead, 5; desire, 4; heart, 15; himself, 8; life, 117; man, 3; mind, 15; misc, 47; person, 29; soul, 475; themselves, 3; will, 4; yourselves, 6;
the NAS translation has given this word even more meanings:

Quote:
Himself, 4; Myself, 3; any, 1; anyone, 1; appetite, 7; being, 1; beings, 3; body, 1; breath, 1; corpse, 2; creature, 6; creatures, 3; dead, 1; dead person, 2; deadly, 1; death, 1; defenseless, 1; desire, 2; discontented, 1; endure, 1; feelings, 1; fierce, 2; greedy, 1; heart, 5; heart's, 2; herself, 12; himself, 19; human, 1; human being, 1; hunger, 1; life, 1; lifeblood, 2; lives, 34; living creature, 1; longing, 1; man, 4; man's, 1; men, 2; mind, 2; myself, 2; number, 1; ones, 1; others, 1; ourselves, 3; own, 1; passion, 1; people, 1; perfume, 1; person, 1; persons, 19; slave, 1; some, 1; soul, 238; soul's, 1; souls, 12; strength, 1; themselves, 6; thirst, 1; throat, 2; will, 1; wish, 1; wishes, 1; yourself, 11; yourselves, 13;
I already posted it I think, but once again: biblical studies: What Is The Soul?
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:13 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
After that the audio was really bad.. can you explain to me why you think soul and spirit are the same?
weird about the sound...and too bad.
Works fine at this end....?


What I tend to think of the issue of the Body/soul/spirit question is this:

That man is a body (physical) and a soul or spirit (metaphysical)
We are a natural part of this world, and a immaterial part of another world.

We are in this world, at the same time citizens of another world.

I also note that I can take about every sentence I can think of that has the term soul or spirit in it, and replace it with the other term and the sentence still works....

(EXAMPLE:..."You have the soul of a great drummer"...."You have the spirit of a great drummer"...the sentence works either way)


Thus when dealing with church matters, I don't get my panties in a bunch just because someone says that they helped save a 'soul" today, or helped save a "spirit" today....
I just thank God for the efforts made.

It's no big deal to me.

There are many friends of mine at church and on-line that believe that men are a Trinity of Body/Soul/Spirit.
We can disagree on this issue cuz it's not a central doctrine of the church.
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,937 times
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Quote:
What I tend to think of the issue of the Body/soul/spirit question is this:

That man is a body (physical) and a soul or spirit (metaphysical)
as far as I know, this is the classical Platonist view
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:20 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
as far as I know, this is the classical Platonist view
Well I did watch a lot of Micky Mouse as a kid, I guess I still do like the cartoons with his dog in them....
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
weird about the sound...and too bad.
Works fine at this end....?


What I tend to think of the issue of the Body/soul/spirit question is this:

That man is a body (physical) and a soul or spirit (metaphysical)
We are a natural part of this world, and a immaterial part of another world.

We are in this world, at the same time citizens of another world.

I also note that I can take about every sentence I can think of that has the term soul or spirit in it, and replace it with the other term and the sentence still works....

(EXAMPLE:..."You have the soul of a great drummer"...."You have the spirit of a great drummer"...the sentence works either way)


Thus when dealing with church matters, I don't get my panties in a bunch just because someone says that they helped save a 'soul" today, or helped save a "spirit" today....
I just thank God for the efforts made.

It's no big deal to me.

There are many friends of mine at church and on-line that believe that men are a Trinity of Body/Soul/Spirit.
We can disagree on this issue cuz it's not a central doctrine of the church.
I understand that but Genesis makes it clear that there is a clear distinction between animals and humans, right? Yet animals are created and it is said that they were made the same way as man with a breath they are created and from the same matter they are referred to as living souls. God even said that upon naming the animals Adam could not find a suitable helper? Why would any animal be a suitable helper for Adam?

Ecc. 3:19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

So then if you say that soul and spirit are the same then how is man different than animals in his relationship to God..
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:33 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I understand that but Genesis makes it clear that there is a clear distinction between animals and humans, right? Yet animals are created and it is said that they were made the same way as man with a breath they are created and from the same matter they are referred to as living souls. God even said that upon naming the animals Adam could not find a suitable helper? Why would any animal be a suitable helper for Adam?

Ecc. 3:19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

So then if you say that soul and spirit are the same then how is man different than animals in his relationship to God..
Im not sure where the question is here?????.....

I do know that on the outside, (or "Under the sun" as is talked about in Ecc, ) that humans are just another animal on the earth...

we are created from the same stuff as all the other life on this world.
We earth come to life.
We eat the same stuff as many other animals, we go to the bathroom , we grow older just like plants and birds all grow older.

When we die, there is no real difference between looking at the dead body of a person and the dead body of a cow or a sheeps.

So the spirit/soul, or whatever you call it, our immaterial nature is not connected in any way to the physical creation..
Thus while Im sure God loves all the birds and trees dearly, His love of mankind is based on this extra connection we have with him that is not shared by any other thing under the sun....
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,122,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Im not sure where the question is here?????.....

I do know that on the outside, (or "Under the sun" as is talked about in Ecc, ) that humans are just another animal on the earth...

we are created from the same stuff as all the other life on this world.
We earth come to life.
We eat the same stuff as many other animals, we go to the bathroom , we grow older just like plants and birds all grow older.

When we die, there is no real difference between looking at the dead body of a person and the dead body of a cow or a sheeps.

So the spirit/soul, or whatever you call it, our immaterial nature is not connected in any way to the physical creation..
Thus while Im sure God loves all the birds and trees dearly, His love of mankind is based on this extra connection we have with him that is not shared by any other thing under the sun....
You are correct....our bodies are just the vessels we live in while in the material world as we are taught by God to be ONE with Him.
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,937 times
Reputation: 843
Ecc. 3:19 (Young's Literal)

For an event [is to] the sons of man, and an event [is to] the beasts, even one event [is] to them; as the death of this, so [is] the death of that; and one spirit [is] to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole [is] vanity.

The NWT renders it:

For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

you see, also animals are said to have a spirit, that doesn't make them immortal beings
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