U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-29-2009, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
Reputation: 1690

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Ecc. 3:19 (Young's Literal)

For an event [is to] the sons of man, and an event [is to] the beasts, even one event [is] to them; as the death of this, so [is] the death of that; and one spirit [is] to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole [is] vanity.

The NWT renders it:

For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

you see, also animals are said to have a spirit, that doesn't make them immortal beings
Yes.. So my question is: What do people think separates us from animals? The soul? The mind? Why does God choose to communicate with us rather than all animals, including us.

Animals are living souls, humans are living souls.
Animals have a spirit, humans have a spirit.
Animals are made from dust, humans are made from dust.
Animals are physical beings, humans are physical beings.

Some say that humans are eternal.. so what part of them is different from animals and makes them eternal.

Some say that humans will retain their physical bodies in heaven yet what makes animals return to dust and not humans.

This all goes back to soul sleep. If the soul is body and spirit combined how does the body sleep or not sleep yet the soul is eternal? Where is the spirit in that?

I know what I believe but I wonder what others think of this as it seems we are reading into the bible that which is not explained within it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-29-2009, 04:37 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7462
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes.. So my question is: What do people think separates us from animals? The soul? The mind? Why does God choose to communicate with us rather than all animals, including us.

Animals are living souls, humans are living souls.
Animals have a spirit, humans have a spirit.
Animals are made from dust, humans are made from dust.
Animals are physical beings, humans are physical beings.

Some say that humans are eternal.. so what part of them is different from animals and makes them eternal.

Some say that humans will retain their physical bodies in heaven yet what makes animals return to dust and not humans.

This all goes back to soul sleep. If the soul is body and spirit combined how does the body sleep or not sleep yet the soul is eternal? Where is the spirit in that?

I know what I believe but I wonder what others think of this as it seems we are reading into the bible that which is not explained within it.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement. What people need to realize is that the book of Ecclesiastes is about Solomon at a time in his life when he had turned away from God and was thinking just as an unbeliever thinks. His was the thinking of one 'under the sun.' That's a phrase used many times in Ecclesiastes to describe the thoughts of one who is living a life of emptyness (vanity). Much of Ecclesiastes details the erronious thoughts of Solomon at this period of his life in order to show what happens to a person who turns his back on God, and tries to find happiness in all the usual human ways. God has allowed the false thinking of Solomon to be recorded in the Scriptures to warn against turning away from God and becoming a victim of his own self induced misery.

Animals do not have spirits, and the fate of men and animals is not the same. When animals die, they are dead. When humans die, they go into the presence of the Lord if they have believed in Christ for salvation,(2 Cor. 5:8 ' absent from the body and face to face with the Lord'), or they go into Torments in Hades if they are an unbeliever. And their bodies return to the dust, where they remain until they are resurrected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-29-2009, 04:59 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,492,706 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement. What people need to realize is that the book of Ecclesiastes is about Solomon at a time in his life when he had turned away from God and was thinking just as an unbeliever thinks. His was the thinking of one 'under the sun.' That's a phrase used many times in Ecclesiastes to describe the thoughts of one who is living a life of emptiness (vanity).
50 Points to you Mike, for being correct!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,651 posts, read 1,713,032 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement.
who are you, to determine which parts of scriptures are true, and which not? - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2Tim. 3:16)

how can you say Salomo was no believer when he wrote Ecclesiastes?

Ecc. 12:13.14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

that does not sound as if Salomo was no believer

Quote:
Animals do not have spirits, and the fate of men and animals is not the same
this is what you says, not what scripture says, the dead are dead; for men there will be a ressurection, for animals I suppose not, if there were no ressurection, men would be and stay dead just as animals: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die (1Co. 15:32).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 06:37 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,417,140 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement.


Oh Mike look at what you are saying here. Now you are saying some scripture is not true! This is what your false doctrines have led you to.

Quote:
Animals do not have spirits, and the fate of men and animals is not the same.
Scripture contradicts you here:

Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

But you probably don't believe this verse either since "Ecclesiastes is not true".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 07:13 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,492,706 times
Reputation: 241
MIKE has a point...

Ecclesiastes is written from the stand point of someone "Under the sun"

As heaven and hell are not "Under the sun" nothing that is spoken about in Ecclesiastes applies to heaven or hell.

So if you try to apply some of the things that Ecc teaches about life under the sun to life in heaven or hell, you will fail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT4AqFaUDnY
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,651 posts, read 1,713,032 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Ecclesiastes is written from the stand point of someone "Under the sun"
this is an articifical exegesis, the ancient Hebrews did not believe in a place called heaven where the immortal souls of righteous people dwell nor did they originally believe in a place of punishment after death, they believed in a ressurection and a messianic kingdom on earth, which is under the sun
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 08:35 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,492,706 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
this is an articifical exegesis, the ancient Hebrews did not believe in a place called heaven
Doesnt matter....
The New Test is the completion of the Old...
The New Covenant is BETTER than the Old.

You ALWAYS read the Old Test in the "light" of the New and NEVER the other way around.

This is the New Wine that the old wine skins could not hold....

I have a Walter martin video on this if you want me to post it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
MIKE has a point...

Ecclesiastes is written from the stand point of someone "Under the sun"

As heaven and hell are not "Under the sun" nothing that is spoken about in Ecclesiastes applies to heaven or hell.

So if you try to apply some of the things that Ecc teaches about life under the sun to life in heaven or hell, you will fail.
Even if that were true Alan and Mike.. The whole bible is from the standpoint of someone "under the sun"... no one wrote the bible from heaven..or hell.

Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

Matthew 22:32 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

So the whole bible deals with life not with death..

The term "under the sun" also refers to during daylight hours...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2009, 10:23 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,492,706 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The term "under the sun" also refers to during daylight hours...
Yes, there is no sunshine in heaven, nor in hell.

The book of Ecc is about a guy looking at life the way it appears to us.
The dead humans look just as dead as pigs or trees or anything.

There is no difference at all in the way a dead person rots to dust and body of a dead animal.
We share the same fate in that regard.
Our ending is the very same place....( all life turns to dust)

The life of the Human is not different in any way from the life of an animal as seen from the outside.
I need to breath to live, and so does Zildjian my pet elk hound.

Our bodies require food and water, we need to sleep, we reproduce, we grow, aged, we get sick, we die.

What is special about us?....nothing.

Well, nothing as seen from the "under the sun" point of view.

But is there anything about humans that is different?

yes, but this thing that is different in us that is not found in any other life on the Earth, is something that cant be seen on the outside.

No part of us under the sun is different...
So that means what?

it means that what is different is talking about that "other" world that is not under the sun.
In that world, nothing in the book of Ecc is bound to it.

Nothing,
not a word that we find true in the world that is "Under the sun" is true for that "other" world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top