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Old 11-01-2009, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Yes, there is no sunshine in heaven, nor in hell.

The book of Ecc is about a guy looking at life the way it appears to us.
The dead humans look just as dead as pigs or trees or anything.

There is no difference at all in the way a dead person rots to dust and body of a dead animal.
We share the same fate in that regard.
Our ending is the very same place....( all life turns to dust)

The life of the Human is not different in any way from the life of an animal as seen from the outside.
I need to breath to live, and so does Zildjian my pet elk hound.

Our bodies require food and water, we need to sleep, we reproduce, we grow, aged, we get sick, we die.

What is special about us?....nothing.

Well, nothing as seen from the "under the sun" point of view.

But is there anything about humans that is different?

yes, but this thing that is different in us that is not found in any other life on the Earth, is something that cant be seen on the outside.

No part of us under the sun is different...
So that means what?

it means that what is different is talking about that "other" world that is not under the sun.
In that world, nothing in the book of Ecc is bound to it.

Nothing,
not a word that we find true in the world that is "Under the sun" is true for that "other" world.
So what part of the bible do you believe is talking about the "other world?"

And I think what bothered most posters...correct me if I am wrong posters...is that Mike says:

"Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement."

Here is the contrast according to Genesis:
Gen. 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Gen. 2:7 "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

So it is apparent that animals and humans have the breath of life which makes them a living soul..the same word is used in both instances.. the difference is that there is more detail with man's creation than with animals. We are said to have been made in God's image. I assume that means that we are given the ability to reason and communicate with the spoken word whereas animals are not.

This doesn't negate Ecc. or make it untrue.
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:24 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

"Ecclesiastes 3:19 is not a true statement."

.
Ecc is not true, about heaven.

Ecc is only seen as true if you keep in mind the limited "Under The Sun" point of view it was addressing.

man has a maternal body.
We share this type of maternal nature with all life on the earth.

But man also has an immaterial nature when talking about how we , "and we alone" are said to be created in the image of God.

We are alone of all other life on the earth, to have this type of immaterial-ness about us.

This human "immaterial-ness" is not bound by any part of Ecc that is aimed at life "under the sun"

If you or anyone else were to attempt to try to use the text of Ecc (a text only aimed at life "Under the sun") to prove something meaningful about the nature of heaven or hell, I would have to reject as wrong and in error your use of Ecc for that reason.
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Ecc is not true, about heaven.

Ecc is only seen as true if you keep in mind the limited "Under The Sun" point of view it was addressing.

man has a maternal body.
We share this type of maternal nature with all life on the earth.

But man also has an immaterial nature when talking about how we , "and we alone" are said to be created in the image of God.

We are alone of all other life on the earth, to have this type of immaterial-ness about us.

This human "immaterial-ness" is not bound by any part of Ecc that is aimed at life "under the sun"

If you or anyone else were to attempt to try to use the text of Ecc (a text only aimed at life "Under the sun") to prove something meaningful about the nature of heaven or hell, I would have to reject as wrong and in error your use of Ecc for that reason.
Ok I see.. in reviewing the thread, where the confusion lies.. Sven was using Ecc. to show that animals and humans are both spirit-filled ON EARTH in the sense that spirit + body = living soul...

This has nothing to do with heaven. I think in misrepresenting the soul as the 3rd part of a human you forget that the spirit is life.. without it animal nor human lives. So when you say that the body dies but the soul lives on.. that is not correct. The spirit of animals and the spirit of humans have the same fate.. they return to the one who gave them life in the first place.

Retaining consciousness is not something we will know about until after death so It is all speculation on our part what happens after death to our consciousness.
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Retaining consciousness is not something we will know about until after death so It is all speculation on our part what happens after death to our consciousness.
I understand the reticence . . . but our consciousness is the ONLY part of us that is pure energy itself . . . non-material. ONLY energy is indestructible and eternal.
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I understand the reticence . . . but our consciousness is the ONLY part of us that is pure energy itself . . . non-material. ONLY energy is indestructible and eternal.
That is a fact!
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I understand the reticence . . . but our consciousness is the ONLY part of us that is pure energy itself . . . non-material. ONLY energy is indestructible and eternal.
I agree but animals are also conscious and therefore have a consciousness.. perhaps not in the same sense we do but nonetheless when I walk by my fish tank and the fish starts gulping at the surface I understand that he/she wants to be fed.. same with my cat... (well except my cat meows not gulps at the surface of water LOL)

There is also evidence that Chimps have amazing recollection and deducing skills in some areas while in others they have no comprehension...

So I don't think one can predict what happens with humans after death anymore than animals...
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Old 11-01-2009, 02:09 PM
 
37,566 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I agree but animals are also conscious and therefore have a consciousness.. perhaps not in the same sense we do but nonetheless when I walk by my fish tank and the fish starts gulping at the surface I understand that he/she wants to be fed.. same with my cat... (well except my cat meows not gulps at the surface of water LOL)

There is also evidence that Chimps have amazing recollection and deducing skills in some areas while in others they have no comprehension...

So I don't think one can predict what happens with humans after death anymore than animals...
You are confusing concrete awareness of cues and stimuli in one's environment (conditioning) with abstract human consciousness (thinking) . . . two very different phenomenon. In plain English, in order to be able to consider the past, the present, and speculate about the future, we need to have the capacity for creating thoughts using words. Animals simply respond to "conditioning" by prior experience. This seemingly obvious conclusion should not be written off without serious consideration of its more profound philosophical implications. It is not simple!

Becoming a human being can be seen to rest irrevocably on becoming an entity capable of creative abstract consciousness -- a unique feature of our brain that is quantitatively and qualitatively different from the conditioned cortical reactions of other animal species. In short, it means becoming capable of thought as we really know it to be, and as distinguished from all other cortical activity in all other life forms, so far as we currently are able to determine.

Most people intuitively know that our human consciousness is unique and does not appear to exist in any other animal on the earth. Our consciousness is markedly different from the awareness that even the most "intelligent" of the animals seems to have of its existence. This is not to minimize the wondrous advances that are happening in our attempts to communicate with other species, where the appearance, at least, of rudimentary cross-species language analogues are being developed.

Animal awareness, like our consciousness, can be very responsive to the environment, but it cannot be abstract. Like humans, many animals can learn from their experiences and influence their expectations and future behavior as a result. Some even can be conditioned to learn sequences of symbols that produce concrete outcomes, but they cannot form pure abstractions. They cannot develop attitudes or interpret their experiences in abstract fashion.

For example, you cannot insult an animal. An insult is an abstract interpretation of a situation that requires our peculiar brand of consciousness. All debates can be boiled down to this fundamental difference between abstract human consciousness and concrete animal awareness, and no amount of intellectual demagoguery can mask it. The consciousness that is eternal and indestructible is of the abstract form (eg. the "Word" form).
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are confusing concrete awareness of cues and stimuli in one's environment (conditioning) with abstract human consciousness (thinking) . . . two very different phenomenon. In plain English, in order to be able to consider the past, the present, and speculate about the future, we need to have the capacity for creating thoughts using words. Animals simply respond to "conditioning" by prior experience. This seemingly obvious conclusion should not be written off without serious consideration of its more profound philosophical implications. It is not simple!

Becoming a human being can be seen to rest irrevocably on becoming an entity capable of creative abstract consciousness -- a unique feature of our brain that is quantitatively and qualitatively different from the conditioned cortical reactions of other animal species. In short, it means becoming capable of thought as we really know it to be, and as distinguished from all other cortical activity in all other life forms, so far as we currently are able to determine.

Most people intuitively know that our human consciousness is unique and does not appear to exist in any other animal on the earth. Our consciousness is markedly different from the awareness that even the most "intelligent" of the animals seems to have of its existence. This is not to minimize the wondrous advances that are happening in our attempts to communicate with other species, where the appearance, at least, of rudimentary cross-species language analogues are being developed.

Animal awareness, like our consciousness, can be very responsive to the environment, but it cannot be abstract. Like humans, many animals can learn from their experiences and influence their expectations and future behavior as a result. Some even can be conditioned to learn sequences of symbols that produce concrete outcomes, but they cannot form pure abstractions. They cannot develop attitudes or interpret their experiences in abstract fashion.

For example, you cannot insult an animal. An insult is an abstract interpretation of a situation that requires our peculiar brand of consciousness. All debates can be boiled down to this fundamental difference between abstract human consciousness and concrete animal awareness, and no amount of intellectual demagoguery can mask it. The consciousness that is eternal and indestructible is of the abstract form (eg. the "Word" form).
I have to disagree.. I believe that animals have a piece of the energy of God, or spirit of God. Humans have a larger portion. After even having pet lizards I can say that they have some cognitive ability and there is a distinct personality. (I was a breeder and I could tell each apart as they grew ) It is the breath of life from God that creates life and animals are alive. However, that doesn't stop me from eating a good steak and I don't have a funeral when a pet dies.

So I was reading through Genesis and came upon this verse:

Now if you look at the different translations it is interesting the differences that makes....

Gen. 6:3 (DRB) And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Gen. 6:3 (KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Gen. 6:3 (NIV) Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Then I see this verse:
Gal. 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

So it seems to me that God's spirit within all people (and animals) is given in God's measure. With people they can increase their measure of God's spirit thus prolonging their life because the flesh always wants what causes quick death. So the more Spirit of God you have the less the flesh will get its way and the longer your life.


Psa. 78:39 Thus He remembered that they were but flesh, A wind that passes and does not return.

But the Spirit of God that gives us life returns to God upon our death which is why God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

Seems a bit bleak because I can only speculate as to what our level of consciousness is after death but that is how I see it and I am happy with that. Life is short.. live it to the fullest in love.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I have to disagree.. I believe that animals have a piece of the energy of God, or spirit of God. Humans have a larger portion. After even having pet lizards I can say that they have some cognitive ability and there is a distinct personality. (I was a breeder and I could tell each apart as they grew ) It is the breath of life from God that creates life and animals are alive. However, that doesn't stop me from eating a good steak and I don't have a funeral when a pet dies.

So I was reading through Genesis and came upon this verse:

Now if you look at the different translations it is interesting the differences that makes....

Gen. 6:3 (DRB) And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Gen. 6:3 (KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Gen. 6:3 (NIV) Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Then I see this verse:
Gal. 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

So it seems to me that God's spirit within all people (and animals) is given in God's measure. With people they can increase their measure of God's spirit thus prolonging their life because the flesh always wants what causes quick death. So the more Spirit of God you have the less the flesh will get its way and the longer your life.


Psa. 78:39 Thus He remembered that they were but flesh, A wind that passes and does not return.

But the Spirit of God that gives us life returns to God upon our death which is why God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

Seems a bit bleak because I can only speculate as to what our level of consciousness is after death but that is how I see it and I am happy with that. Life is short.. live it to the fullest in love.
I found a joke that describes animals consciousness perfectly

Animal thoughts.
Dog: "They keep putting the lid down on the big water bowl."
Goldfish: "Just because I have a three-second memory, they don't think I'll mind eating the same fish flakes ... Oh boy! Fish flakes!"
Goldfish: "The knight never comes out of the castle to fight me for dominion over the fish tank. So I must continue patrolling, for I am lord and master!"
Cat: "Why are these people in my house?"
Goldfish: "Oh, tap-tap-tap! There's a new one!"

thatsRich! : : jokes!
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:26 AM
 
37,566 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I have to disagree.. I believe that animals have a piece of the energy of God, or spirit of God. Humans have a larger portion. After even having pet lizards I can say that they have some cognitive ability and there is a distinct personality. (I was a breeder and I could tell each apart as they grew ) It is the breath of life from God that creates life and animals are alive. However, that doesn't stop me from eating a good steak and I don't have a funeral when a pet dies.
You did not read very carefully or you simply do not understand the difference between concrete animal cognitive awareness (which seems like our conscious awareness . . . but isn't) and abstract human consciousness (which is completely different from what animals have). ALL life has a piece of the energy of God . . . but not all are transformed into the energy form that comprises God consciousness and is the basis of the universal field that defines our reality. We are "animal-plus" . . . we have the same capabilities as the animals (which is why they seem so similar) but we have significantly more that defines our uniqueness and establishes our purpose . . . conscious thought . . . not just awareness.
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