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Old 10-19-2009, 03:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Because we are made body, spirit and soul, and the soul needs to be clothed with its own body, and will be.
All will be resurrected in their very own, same, DNA coded bodies [without mutations caused by the curse of sin] because Jesus died for and atoned for all in Adam; but those who do not want to seek the Light that lights every seed/individual soul born of Adam [into the world], while they have their being intact, will not be raised in the image of the New Man; but they will be raised in their own Adam flesh, minus the Adam spirit.
And they will be souls indwelling their own their Adam flesh bodies forever, with no Adam spirit.


The unregenerated, in spirit, souls born in Adam will then be cast aways in the Lake of Fire [made for the devil and his angels], and will be undying "worms" forever, in their own Adam flesh bodies, with no possibility to ever be morphosed into the image of the glorious sons of God.
Rhetoric. And ... you still did not answer the question. Never mind ...
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:14 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
First of all, there is a reason why the book of enoch is not a part of the canon ...
1 Enoch is part of my "canon" as I do not follow Rome, but use what the early Church used and believed to be sacred writings, given by the Holy Spirit to us.
Rome banned it nearly 400 years after the NT Church was established and was using 1 Enoch and was calling it "scripture"; just as the believing Jews did use it before the Church was established. The DSS Scrolls contained many copies of Enoch, used as Scripture by the Essenes, and Jesus used it to preach the Gospel of "the Son of Man in heaven"; whom Enoch had seen with God, hidden, who was God, and whose name was kept secret, and who was to be revealed [and was revealed to Jacob], and in whose name the elect would be saved [who choose to live the elect life, as Enoch wrote].
The early Church authors called Enoch Scripture, when writing of it, and Jesus called it Scripture when he told the Sadducees that they erred, not knowing the Scriptures...because those resurrected to the resurrection of life do not marry nor give in marriage but are like/as the angels in heaven.
In 1 Enoch only, is that told of, and the angels that sinned by fornicating with daughters of Adam were chained in Sheol below earth, as a warning to others [Watcher angels] not to do that, says Jude, using Enoch as reference.

Enoch is canon in the Ethiopian Coptic Church, because they were Jews before they converted to Christ, and they had and used 1 Enoch. They never followed Rome, and so they kept it in their sacred writings, and from there, copies were got in the late 1700's, and translated to English, over 200 years ago.


Here's a lesson on "Canon":
Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:33 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
1 Enoch is part of my "canon" as I do not follow Rome, but use what the early Church used and believed to be sacred writings, given by the Holy Spirit to us.
Rome banned it nearly 400 years after the NT Church was established and was using 1 Enoch and was calling it "scripture"; just as the believing Jews did use it before the Church was established. The DSS Scrolls contained many copies of Enoch, used as Scripture by the Essenes, and Jesus used it to preach the Gospel of "the Son of Man in heaven"; whom Enoch had seen with God, hidden, who was God, and whose name was kept secret, and who was to be revealed [and was revealed to Jacob], and in whose name the elect would be saved [who choose to live the elect life, as Enoch wrote].
The early Church authors called Enoch Scripture, when writing of it, and Jesus called it Scripture when he told the Sadducees that they erred, not knowing the Scriptures...because those resurrected to the resurrection of life do not marry nor give in marriage but are like/as the angels in heaven.
In 1 Enoch only, is that told of, and the angels that sinned by fornicating with daughters of Adam were chained in Sheol below earth, as a warning to others [Watcher angels] not to do that, says Jude, using Enoch as reference.

Enoch is canon in the Ethiopian Coptic Church, because they were Jews before they converted to Christ, and they had and used 1 Enoch. They never followed Rome, and so they kept it in their sacred writings, and from there, copies were got in the late 1700's, and translated to English, over 200 years ago.


Here's a lesson on "Canon":
Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
If you believed what the early church believed you wouldn't believe in hell or in eternal damnation.

It all boils down to you believe whatever agrees with what you want to be true.

Leave it up to fundamentalists to be the ones to go outside the bible to prove their doctrine. It is becoming a regular trend here on C-D ... And we are told we(who believe in Universal Reconciliation) are the ones that are not biblical.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 03:42 AM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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Soul sleep is not actual sleeping. It means those soul who have not awoken to the Christ nature or principle. Jesus showed the way from slumber and show how to awaken the soul.
It has nothing to do with after death, unless you don't wake up before then, but the soul never sleeps, it rests. To awaken means to find the God within.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,108,702 times
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In the last year of my bible studies, I have become a believer in what is called soul sleep.

Your post is very good Antredd . . . BUT . . in a nutshell . . . as I believe Ironmaw asked . . .what is the purpose of the first resurrection?

Also . . . in Revealations, at the first resurrection, we see where Christ will awaken those who crucified him . . . awaken them from what??

You see, those who crucified Christ were Not in Hell . . . they were also asleep, to be resurrected to see the King of Kings . . and put back to "sleep" death, until their resurrection, and judgement at the Great White Throne.

I think this biblical fact is overlooked . . . and which proves that hell is not a literal place somewhere . . . and that those who have died, are in the grave . . . as Jesus was.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:38 PM
 
20,297 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
In the last year of my bible studies, I have become a believer in what is called soul sleep.

Your post is very good Antredd . . . BUT . . in a nutshell . . . as I believe Ironmaw asked . . .what is the purpose of the first resurrection?
The purpose of the resurrection is that God does not intend anyone to go through eternity in a disembodied state.

Quote:
Also . . . in Revealations, at the first resurrection, we see where Christ will awaken those who crucified him . . . awaken them from what??
Sleep in the Bible always refers to the body, never to the soul.

Quote:
You see, those who crucified Christ were Not in Hell . . . they were also asleep, to be resurrected to see the King of Kings . . and put back to "sleep" death, until their resurrection, and judgement at the Great White Throne.

I think this biblical fact is overlooked . . . and which proves that hell is not a literal place somewhere . . . and that those who have died, are in the grave . . . as Jesus was.
The Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12:1-6 describes his experience of being caught up into Heaven.

Rev. 6:9-11 and Rev.20:4 both show the souls of those who are in Heaven. Not in the grave.

Jesus on the Cross told the thief in Luke 23:43 ''Verily I say to thee, Today with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'' (Youngs Literal Translation) I used Young's because some like to claim that it is a better translation then the others and yet, it puts the comma between 'thee and today'. Some people like to say, without any justification, that the comma should be after the word, 'today.' Anything to justify their false teaching.

Eph.4:9 shows that Christ descended into the LOWER parts of the earth--the Paradise side of Hades, Only His body was in the tomb.

In 1 Peter 3:19 we see that Christ at that time went over into Tartarus to proclaim to the imprisoned fallen angels there, that He had gone to the Cross, and succeeded in His mission.

Paul had more knowledge of church age doctrine than any of the other Apostles. He talked about how it was better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.(Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8-9) And again, Paul had been caught up into the third Heaven-2 Cor. 12:1-6.)

Paul knew what he was talking about.

The Bible is quite clear that the soul does not sleep, but rather, it goes into the presence of the Lord at death-believer; and into Torments-unbeliever.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Sleep in the Bible always refers to the body, never to the soul.
That is just silly.

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." 12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.


Its not just Lazarus' body that had died. It was Lazarus who died.

John 11:13 Jesus had been speaking of his death...
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
That is just silly.

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." 12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.


Its not just Lazarus' body that had died. It was Lazarus who died.

John 11:13 Jesus had been speaking of his death...
That passage simply mentions the physical death of Lazarus. His body. Not his soul.

The Bible makes it clear that the body, soul, and Spirit are separate aspects of a man. The passages that show the soul in Heaven have been shown. If you are incapable of comprehending that fact, then by all means continue in your erroneous thinking.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:37 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
I think this biblical fact is overlooked . . . and which proves that hell is not a literal place somewhere . . . and that those who have died, are in the grave . . . as Jesus was.
You think wrongly and Jesus body was in the tomb; His soul was in Hades below, in the "belly of the earth".

Enoch was taken on a tour of the universe and of the great earth [the unseen realm of it] and Sheol beneath earth.

Quote:
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow [Seol/hell] places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here.



And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'



I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8



Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated.

And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime.
Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Jesus spoke of the bright spring of water which Enoch described, and the rich man's desire to have Lazarus dip his fingertip in water and "cool his tongue" -"And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water".
Quote:
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, (father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:58 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The purpose of the resurrection is that God does not intend anyone to go through eternity in a disembodied state.



Sleep in the Bible always refers to the body, never to the soul.



The Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12:1-6 describes his experience of being caught up into Heaven.

Rev. 6:9-11 and Rev.20:4 both show the souls of those who are in Heaven. Not in the grave.

Jesus on the Cross told the thief in Luke 23:43 ''Verily I say to thee, Today with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'' (Youngs Literal Translation) I used Young's because some like to claim that it is a better translation then the others and yet, it puts the comma between 'thee and today'. Some people like to say, without any justification, that the comma should be after the word, 'today.' Anything to justify their false teaching.

Eph.4:9 shows that Christ descended into the LOWER parts of the earth--the Paradise side of Hades, Only His body was in the tomb.

In 1 Peter 3:19 we see that Christ at that time went over into Tartarus to proclaim to the imprisoned fallen angels there, that He had gone to the Cross, and succeeded in His mission.

Paul had more knowledge of church age doctrine than any of the other Apostles. He talked about how it was better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.(Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8-9) And again, Paul had been caught up into the third Heaven-2 Cor. 12:1-6.)

Paul knew what he was talking about.

The Bible is quite clear that the soul does not sleep, but rather, it goes into the presence of the Lord at death-believer; and into Torments-unbeliever.

The only thing you said that has not been dealt with yet in this thread is Rev. 6:9-11 ...

You interpretation of this vision is again a misunderstanding because you try to interpret literally what is a symbolic vision. The souls of the dead cry out as their blood Cries out from the ground.

Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

All the symbolism here is just that, symbolic. Fundamentalists cant seem to understand figurative speech and Anthropomorphic language. He(John) was in an ecstatic state and he was perceiving a spiritual reality in what might be considered a spiritual montage of past, present and future events. Do you really believe that God keeps the martyred conscious souls of his saints cramped up under an alter in heaven until he finally judges those that martyred them? Use your head people and realize this is symbolism.
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