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Old 10-19-2009, 11:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Oh yeah, follow these traditions of men which make the word of God to no avail and claim God is a looser and unable to accomplish his purpose which is the reconciliation of the whole world to himself through the blood of the cross of Christ. Follow these traditions of institutionalized Christianity which teach sin and death will exist forever and maintain power over the vast majority of Gods creation throughout everlasting. Follow these traditions of men which you, Mike, and so many other teach that declares Satan the actual victor over the majority of humanity. These traditions which teach fables and myths/doctrines of demons and tortures everlasting. These traditions which teach that God has created the ultimate abomination of evil in order to torture most of his creation for ever.

No thanks Mike, been there and done that and realized the impotency of it and threw it away for the trash it is. I will believe the truth of the complete victory of Christ over sin and death and every work of the devil, and even over the devil himself who will one day be reconciled as well. No one can resist the saving power of Christ in the end, not even the father of lies.
God doesn't force salvation on anyone who doesn't want it. You fail to understand that it is by the sovereignty of God that man's free will exists. God is not interested in forcing Himself on those who want nothing to do with Him.

You fail also to understand that the righteous demands of God must be met before He can have a relationship with His creatures. And that the Cross is the only way that God can provide salvation for man without compromising His righteousness.

Further, you fail to understand that universal reconciliation simply means that the penalty of sin was paid for, and the barrier of sin was removed. But that man must choose to walk over the line where the barrier of sin once was.

You ignore every single salvation passage that tells you that you must make a decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.

You fail to understand that God allows Satan, up to a point, to do all that he can to prove his assertions that he that he is as capable as God.

You purposely distort the Scriptures to imply that God 'tortures' his creatures, when in fact He has done all that He can do without compromising His holiness to save man from the lake of fire. It is by man's own choice that he walks away from God and His offer of salvation.

If indeed you used to believe these things as you say, then it seems that whatever drove the truth out of you, continues to have its way with you.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:22 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God doesn't force salvation on anyone who doesn't want it. You fail to understand that it is by the sovereignty of God that man's free will exists. God is not interested in forcing Himself on those who want nothing to do with Him.
According to your traditional indoctrination. You say he will not force salvation on anyone yet he will force them to be tortured for ever. Really Mike, what is worse, being compelled to believe, or being tortured for everlasting?

Quote:
You fail also to understand that the righteous demands of God must be met before He can have a relationship with His creatures. And that the Cross is the only way that God can provide salvation for man without compromising His righteousness.
I do not fail to recognize this at all. I simply understand that all will eventually come to accept Christ as their savior one way or another, either by election here in the ages by the work of God within us which drags us to the cross (Jhn 6:44,Jhn 12:32) and instills in us the faith to believe and the will to do his good pleasure(Eph 2:8,Phl 2:13), or by the fiery judgments which will purify those so judged until they are able and willing to receive him as lord and savior and sing his name in joy and worship him and confess he is lord and swear fealty to him(1Cr 3:15,Isa 45:23,Rom 14:11,Phl 2:11,Psa 67:4,Psa 66:4).

Quote:
Further, you fail to understand that universal reconciliation simply means that the penalty of sin was paid for, and the barrier of sin was removed. But that man must choose to walk over the line where the barrier of sin once was.
Reconciliation of the world means to bring all things back into a state of harmony with himself("ἀποκαταλλάσσω πᾶς εἰς αὐτός" -"apokatallassō pas eis autos" Col 1:20), as well as to pay the price for the whole world in order to release all from the captivity of sin and death("καταλλάσσω κόσμος ἑαυτοῦ" - "katallassō kosmos heautou", 2Cr 5:19,1Ti 2:6). After all the truth is that no one Chooses God, but God chooses us(Jhn 15:16).

Quote:
You ignore every single salvation passage that tells you that you must make a decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.
I ignore nothing, i simply recognize the difference between the elect who are chosen by God to reign with Christ who are given faith to believe in this life, and those who are not elected to this office who are at this time deceived but who will be reconciled in due time by his fiery judgments after which they to will serve God and worship him in the name of Jesus.

Quote:
You fail to understand that God allows Satan, up to a point, to do all that he can to prove his assertions that he that he is as capable as God.
I don't remember ever having read anything in the bible that even hints at this rhetorical speculation which you toss about as of it were scriptural. The scriptures do point out that Satan doubts Gods creation of man, and that he is the accuser of the brethren(Job 1:10,Rev 12:10), but i know of nothing in scripture that says he believes himself as capable as God, but again maybe i am forgetting something.

Quote:
You purposely distort the Scriptures to imply that God 'tortures' his creatures, when in fact He has done all that He can do without compromising His holiness to save man from the lake of fire. It is by man's own choice that he walks away from God and His offer of salvation.
Again this is rhetoric, the fact according to scripture is that those that do not believe are deceived, and if they knew the truth they would not do what they do or disbelieve, but they are deceived by the god of this world whom God almighty has himself ordained to deceive them(Isa 45:7,Isa 54:16,1Cor 4:4,Luk 23:34,Jhn 12:40,Rom 11:7,2Cr 3:14,1Jo 2:11,Rom 9:18,Rom 9:21,2Ti 2:20).

Quote:
If indeed you used to believe these things as you say, then it seems that whatever drove the truth out of you, continues to have its way with you.
The truth dragged me out of the false doctrines of the traditions of men into the light of the true Gospel and the ministry of reconciliation. I know one day you too will be dragged into the light as well when your time has come, either in this life or after the resurrection.

(*Note that if you want to read the scriptures i have posted as evidence of what i am saying all you have to do is click on the scriptures which are in blue, they are links.)

Amen and Selah.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-20-2009 at 12:33 AM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,568,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You fail also to understand that the righteous demands of God must be met before He can have a relationship with His creatures.
Mike,
May I ask if you are among the ones who think babies go to hell?
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God doesn't force salvation on anyone who doesn't want it. You fail to understand that it is by the sovereignty of God that man's free will exists. God is not interested in forcing Himself on those who want nothing to do with Him.
But he forces people to choose Hell by default? Nice!

Quote:
You fail also to understand that the righteous demands of God must be met before He can have a relationship with His creatures. And that the Cross is the only way that God can provide salvation for man without compromising His righteousness.
If God is God he can impute righteousness on whomever her pleases~ right? Fact is that no human is righteous nor do the have the capacity on their own to be righteous.. it is impossible to earn salvation. Salvatio is given as a gift not to be confused with being earned.

Quote:
Further, you fail to understand that universal reconciliation simply means that the penalty of sin was paid for, and the barrier of sin was removed. But that man must choose to walk over the line where the barrier of sin once was.
Can you agree that if it were left up to humans.. they would never reach salvation? I mean that is the purpose of universal reconciliation! Because humans are incapable of attaining righteousness it was necessary to give righteousness as a gift yet you continue to preach that it is man's choice to be saved. If that were true then why is Hell the default? What if a man doesn't consciously choose hell as their eternal destination.. Then God forces them to go to hell but you are saying God won't force them into salvation? That makes no sense!

Quote:
You ignore every single salvation passage that tells you that you must make a decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.

You fail to understand that God allows Satan, up to a point, to do all that he can to prove his assertions that he that he is as capable as God.
So you are saying that Satan is equal to God and is as capable as God?

Quote:
You purposely distort the Scriptures to imply that God 'tortures' his creatures, when in fact He has done all that He can do without compromising His holiness to save man from the lake of fire. It is by man's own choice that he walks away from God and His offer of salvation.

If indeed you used to believe these things as you say, then it seems that whatever drove the truth out of you, continues to have its way with you.
God defines holiness yet you say that he compromises his own self-defined holiness by imputing righteousness on those who are not righteousness? Were you righteous to begin with or are you imputed with righteousness? The answer to that is obvious and rhetorical.

Isaiah 57:12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.

Deuteronomy 16:19 "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.

You distort justice for justice is not partial to whether you believe or not....

Daniel 9:18 "O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

But of course.. all of these scriptures and more fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:51 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But he forces people to choose Hell by default? Nice!

If God is God he can impute righteousness on whomever her pleases~ right? Fact is that no human is righteous nor do the have the capacity on their own to be righteous.. it is impossible to earn salvation. Salvatio is given as a gift not to be confused with being earned.

Can you agree that if it were left up to humans.. they would never reach salvation? I mean that is the purpose of universal reconciliation! Because humans are incapable of attaining righteousness it was necessary to give righteousness as a gift yet you continue to preach that it is man's choice to be saved. If that were true then why is Hell the default? What if a man doesn't consciously choose hell as their eternal destination.. Then God forces them to go to hell but you are saying God won't force them into salvation? That makes no sense!


So you are saying that Satan is equal to God and is as capable as God?

God defines holiness yet you say that he compromises his own self-defined holiness by imputing righteousness on those who are not righteousness? Were you righteous to begin with or are you imputed with righteousness? The answer to that is obvious and rhetorical.

Isaiah 57:12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.

Deuteronomy 16:19 "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.

You distort justice for justice is not partial to whether you believe or not....

Daniel 9:18 "O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

But of course.. all of these scriptures and more fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.
Mike said ...
Quote:
You purposely distort the Scriptures to imply that God 'tortures' his creatures, when in fact He has done all that He can do without compromising His holiness to save man from the lake of fire. It is by man's own choice that he walks away from God and His offer of salvation.
Yet Christ says all things are possible unto God(Mat 19:26,Mar 10:27). So If God allows anyone to remain lost forever it is not because he has done all that he can do. God is able to save all people without compromising his holiness, that is what the lake of fire is for after all. God will not save people from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire his how he saves most people from sin and death(Cr 3:15). If only they had ears to hear ... One day they will ...

Selah.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Mike said ...
Yet Christ says all things are possible unto God(Mat 19:26,Mar 10:27). So If God allows anyone to remain lost forever it is not because he has done all that he can do. God is able to save all people without compromising his holiness, that is what the lake of fire is for after all. God will not save people from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire his how he saves most people from sin and death(Cr 3:15). If only they had ears to hear ... One day they will ...

Selah.
Yes.. I would ask that you stop copying me.. or that I stop copying you.. or perhaps.. Great minds think alike?

This is Mike's thought and correct me if I am wrong Mike. Mike says that if you choose God you will receive Life eternal, but if you fail to choose or choose not to believe.. then you are, by default, thrown into a burning hell to be tormented forever. What part of that seems rational or logical?

I think, also, that the lake of fire can be on earth when we are consumed by the breath of God.

Isaiah 1:25 "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy.

If you choose to believe in God then you get eternal life but if you don't choose at all or choose not to believe you are thrown into everlasting torment.. Yeah that seems like justice! Seems to me that someone doesn't have ANY idea what and who God is.

Malachi 3:3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"

Seems like they are living on earth with this consuming fire...

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Jeremiah 29:11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

And there are so many more that profess that the fire is for purifying not just to torture people by default!!! and that the fire is while you LIVE not necessarily after death although that may be the case.. I am still living so I cannot say for certain what happens after death!
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:06 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
Mike, correct me if I am wrong, but don't you believe the Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years???
Yes.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:25 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Mike,
May I ask if you are among the ones who think babies go to hell?
Those who die before they are mentally developed enough to be able to conceive of the existance of God are automatically saved. Anyone who is too young, or is too mentally impaired, such as in retardation to the extent that they just can't understand the concept of God, is automatically saved. The reason is that God requires a volitional decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved. But God is fair and just. If any member of the human race is not capable of making that decision because they are too young to even understand the concept of God, they they are saved because of the work of Christ on the Cross. But if you, no matter what your age, are able to understand the issue involved in salvation, then you have to make that volitional decision to believe in order for reconciliation to be applied to you.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:09 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes.. I would ask that you stop copying me.. or that I stop copying you.. or perhaps.. Great minds think alike?

This is Mike's thought and correct me if I am wrong Mike. Mike says that if you choose God you will receive Life eternal, but if you fail to choose or choose not to believe.. then you are, by default, thrown into a burning hell to be tormented forever. What part of that seems rational or logical?

I think, also, that the lake of fire can be on earth when we are consumed by the breath of God.

Isaiah 1:25 "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy.

If you choose to believe in God then you get eternal life but if you don't choose at all or choose not to believe you are thrown into everlasting torment.. Yeah that seems like justice! Seems to me that someone doesn't have ANY idea what and who God is.
Believing in God doesn't save you. You must believe specifically in Christ (who is the second person of the Trinity) in order to be saved.

It is you who do not understand anything about the nature of God. You just don't believe anything that the Bible says concerning God's justice, and that His righteousness must be satisfied before man can be allowed into His presence.

You completely ignore everything that the Bible says about it, in order to justify your own nonscriptural ideas, and you attempt to mode God into your image of what God should be like. In so doing you are mocking God, and making Him to be a liar. But God can not be mocked. Romans 12:19 says, ''Vengeance is Mine, I will repay says the Lord.''

Quote:
Malachi 3:3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"

Seems like they are living on earth with this consuming fire...

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Jeremiah 29:11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

And there are so many more that profess that the fire is for purifying not just to torture people by default!!! and that the fire is while you LIVE not necessarily after death although that may be the case.. I am still living so I cannot say for certain what happens after death!
The Bible does say with all certainty what happens after death.

God can not do anything that compromises His character. God is immutable and therefore, cannot change His mind. God is truth and therefore, cannot lie. God is eternal life and therefore, cannot die. God is omniscience and therefore, cannot be ignorant of anything. God is just and therefore, cannot do anything that compromises His justice. (I thought I was putting this paragraph under a different comment, but I'll leave it here.)
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:38 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
According to your traditional indoctrination. You say he will not force salvation on anyone yet he will force them to be tortured for ever. Really Mike, what is worse, being compelled to believe, or being tortured for everlasting?

I do not fail to recognize this at all. I simply understand that all will eventually come to accept Christ as their savior one way or another, either by election here in the ages by the work of God within us which drags us to the cross (Jhn 6:44,Jhn 12:32) and instills in us the faith to believe and the will to do his good pleasure(Eph 2:8,Phl 2:13), or by the fiery judgments which will purify those so judged until they are able and willing to receive him as lord and savior and sing his name in joy and worship him and confess he is lord and swear fealty to him(1Cr 3:15,Isa 45:23,Rom 14:11,Phl 2:11,Psa 67:4,Psa 66:4).

Reconciliation of the world means to bring all things back into a state of harmony with himself("ἀποκαταλλάσσω πᾶς εἰς αὐτός" -"apokatallassō pas eis autos" Col 1:20), as well as to pay the price for the whole world in order to release all from the captivity of sin and death("καταλλάσσω κόσμος ἑαυτοῦ" - "katallassō kosmos heautou", 2Cr 5:19,1Ti 2:6). After all the truth is that no one Chooses God, but God chooses us(Jhn 15:16).

I ignore nothing, i simply recognize the difference between the elect who are chosen by God to reign with Christ who are given faith to believe in this life, and those who are not elected to this office who are at this time deceived but who will be reconciled in due time by his fiery judgments after which they to will serve God and worship him in the name of Jesus.


I don't remember ever having read anything in the bible that even hints at this rhetorical speculation which you toss about as of it were scriptural. The scriptures do point out that Satan doubts Gods creation of man, and that he is the accuser of the brethren(Job 1:10,Rev 12:10), but i know of nothing in scripture that says he believes himself as capable as God, but again maybe i am forgetting something.
You are forgetting much!!!

Isaiah 14:13-14 The five ''I wills'' of Satan. And anyone who thinks that this is not addressed to Satan had better look to the preceding verse 12.

It is pointless to continue with this. You are locked into your false beliefs and it seems that nothing is going to get through to you. So be it.
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