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Old 10-20-2009, 06:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Mike said ...
Yet Christ says all things are possible unto God(Mat 19:26,Mar 10:27). So If God allows anyone to remain lost forever it is not because he has done all that he can do. God is able to save all people without compromising his holiness, that is what the lake of fire is for after all. God will not save people from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire his how he saves most people from sin and death(Cr 3:15). If only they had ears to hear ... One day they will ...

Selah.
God provided the Cross as the one way of providing salvation without compromising His righteousness. If anyone rejects the way of salvation that God has provided, then God must sentence that person to the lake of fire.

Final answer.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who die before they are mentally developed enough to be able to conceive of the existance of God are automatically saved.
YES Another way to heaven!

Oh wait, doesn't that make Jesus death on the cross moot?
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But he forces people to choose Hell by default? Nice!

Brilliant assessment Kat! God is so "loving" he doesn't want to force anyone into heaven, yet He forces people into "hell"?!??

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Old 10-20-2009, 07:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Thank you for the props. But how do you get around Jesus' cruxifiction? When Jesus died, didn't he say to his Father-Father into Your hands I commit My Spirit? (Luke 23:46) When Stephen was stoned, didn't he pray to God saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit? (Acts 7:59). The evidence just from these two verses are overwhelmingly clear, when we die, OUR SPIRIT, goes back to be with God. Our physical bodies die and return back to dust as Scripture clearly teaches, but our spirit goes back to God who gave it to us in the first place.
Our spirit is simply the breath of life. It is not our soul.

God breathed life (spirit) into the man (Adam - dust) and he BECAME a living soul.

When we die the spirit returns to God and the dust returns to the earth. The soul only exists when both spirit and body are combined.

Jesus spirit returned to God just like ours does. Do not confuse spirit with soul.

Soul is the being - the persona - who we are. Spirit is simply the "life force".
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
YES Another way to heaven!

Oh wait, doesn't that make Jesus death on the cross moot?
No. Why would you think such a thing? Christ removed sin as a barrier to salvation. But God requires us to make a choice as all the salvation passages tell us. But if a person has no ability to make such a decision because they are too young or too mentally retarded to be able to, then by the Grace of God, they are saved because of the work of Christ on the Cross. But those who can make a decision are required to. Simple.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Our spirit is simply the breath of life. It is not our soul.

God breathed life (spirit) into the man (Adam - dust) and he BECAME a living soul.

When we die the spirit returns to God and the dust returns to the earth. The soul only exists when both spirit and body are combined.

Jesus spirit returned to God just like ours does. Do not confuse spirit with soul.

Soul is the being - the persona - who we are. Spirit is simply the "life force".
Revelation 6:9 ...I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10) and they cried out with a loud voice,... (the souls are crying out with a loud voice--they are in Heaven and they are conscious.)

Revelation 20:4 ...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus...

Both passages show the souls of those who had been killed and are now in Heaven.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of the soul and the spirit, and the joints and the marrow, and is able to judge the thouhgts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 ...and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete

The soul, spirit, and body are separate and distinct aspects of the person.

These passages are a part of the Word of God.

Do you believe the Word of God, or do you not?
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. Why would you think such a thing? Christ removed sin as a barrier to salvation. But God requires us to make a choice as all the salvation passages tell us. But if a person has no ability to make such a decision because they are too young or too mentally retarded to be able to, then by the Grace of God, they are saved because of the work of Christ on the Cross. But those who can make a decision are required to. Simple.
If Christ removed sin as a barrier to salvation, then all are saved period.

Why should we stop at some "age of accountability"? It seems the criteria you are using is someone must be able to "make a decision" for Christ.

So what about those who've never heard. A person is 79 years old, has never heard of Christ. How can he make a decision for Christ? How can he make a decision for something he's never heard of?

What about those who never had enough evidence presented to them? What about those who never had God open their eyes? How can they make a decision for something they don't understand or can't see?

And on and on it goes. If you are going to acknowledge an "age of accountability", you have to acknowledge that some people are saved without know Christ in this life. I agree Christ covered everyone's sins, so His death on the cross is NOT moot. If you are going to make excuses for the kids not to go to hell, you may as well conceed universal salvation.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
When we die the spirit returns to God and the dust returns to the earth. The soul only exists when both spirit and body are combined.
Lot of rules to that idea of yours...

I got to ask so I can check...:"What church teaches this?"

Is this one of them Calvin/Baptist ideas?

Is this a catholic church idea?

Is there any church you can name that holds to this teaching?
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Revelation 6:9 ...I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10) and they cried out with a loud voice,... (the souls are crying out with a loud voice--they are in Heaven and they are conscious.)

Revelation 20:4 ...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus...

Both passages show the souls of those who had been killed and are now in Heaven.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of the soul and the spirit, and the joints and the marrow, and is able to judge the thouhgts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 ...and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete

The soul, spirit, and body are separate and distinct aspects of the person.

These passages are a part of the Word of God.

Do you believe the Word of God, or do you not?
LOL Yes I believe the Word of God. What I reject is your poor interpretation of it.

So you believe we are all actually three persons? Kind of like a trinity?

1 Thes 5:23 is not proof of 3 distinct persons. Yes there is 3 different "aspects", but only one of these "aspects" is actually the persona - the consciousness. That is the soul. Ezekiel tells us the soul that sinneth DIES. That means the soul can be NOT ALIVE. Death is the opposite of being alive. If you are not alive, you are dead. This is not rocket science.

The soul is the essence of the person. The body is the physical body (no consiousness there), and the spirit is the life breath (no consiousness there either). The consciousness is the soul.

Jesus did not go to heaven when He said "into my hands I commit my spirit", because as Ironmaw pointed out, Jesus own words tell us:

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

So that disqualifies "spirit" as meaning the persona. Spirit is the life breath that brings life. But the spirit needs a body. Without a body there is no soul that is alive.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That means He was DEAD. Not alive in another location. That is why we can say He DIED for the sin of the world.


You need to re-evalute those scriptures in revelations - Remember revelations is a book of symbols, not literal descriptions.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:28 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Lot of rules to that idea of yours...

I got to ask so I can check...:"What church teaches this?"

Is this one of them Calvin/Baptist ideas?

Is this a catholic church idea?

Is there any church you can name that holds to this teaching?

The bible teaches it.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The breath of life is the spirit (hebrew neshamah - breath, spirit).
The dust of the ground is formed into the body.

The two together BECOME a soul. The soul did not exist before that point. The spirt and the body enabled the man to have life. A living soul.

Without either body or spirit, there is no soul. The soul is not naturally immortal.

Look up Gen 2:7 on blueletterbible.org if you want clear definitions of the body, spirit, and soul.
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