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Old 10-20-2009, 09:35 AM
 
20,351 posts, read 15,726,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
If Christ removed sin as a barrier to salvation, then all are saved period.

Why should we stop at some "age of accountability"? It seems the criteria you are using is someone must be able to "make a decision" for Christ.

So what about those who've never heard. A person is 79 years old, has never heard of Christ. How can he make a decision for Christ? How can he make a decision for something he's never heard of?

What about those who never had enough evidence presented to them? What about those who never had God open their eyes? How can they make a decision for something they don't understand or can't see?

And on and on it goes. If you are going to acknowledge an "age of accountability", you have to acknowledge that some people are saved without know Christ in this life. I agree Christ covered everyone's sins, so His death on the cross is NOT moot. If you are going to make excuses for the kids not to go to hell, you may as well conceed universal salvation.
God gets the Gospel to anyone who expresses a desire to know God once they have conceived of the concept of a supreme being. God will keep that person alive long enough to hear the Gospel. It makes no difference where on earth, or how isolated that person may be. Or, do you not think that the God who spoke the universe into existance can get the Gospel to anyone, no matter where on earth they are? If a person has no desire to know God, then God is not responsible to get the Gospel to that person.

By ignoring the salvation passages that make the issue of a volitional decision absolutely clear, you deny the truth of God's revealed Word, and you are without excuse.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God gets the Gospel to anyone who expresses a desire to know God once they have conceived of the concept of a supreme being. God will keep that person alive long enough to hear the Gospel. It makes no difference where on earth, or how isolated that person may be. Or, do you not think that the God who spoke the universe into existance can get the Gospel to anyone, no matter where on earth they are? If a person has no desire to know God, then God is not responsible to get the Gospel to that person.

By ignoring the salvation passages that make the issue of a volitional decision absolutely clear, you deny the truth of God's revealed Word, and you are without excuse.
Yes God can and will bring salvation to all... you seem to believe that a person must accept the salvation.

So... just for that I will go down and pay your utility bill.. SAVE you from the utility bill... Does the utility company still count it against you?

NO because the transaction is between ME and the utility company and has nothing to do with you accepting it. Just as the salvation transaction was between Christ and God... We have nothing to do with it...

Now you can ignore that I paid your utility bill, but it won't matter to me or the utility company..

Do you get that if you say there are exceptions to how one is saved without scripture to back it up then your whole argument that only Some are saved falls apart. If God is able to bring salvation to ALL MEN which you just said, then of course he is able to SAVE ALL MEN!!!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:13 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,422,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God gets the Gospel to anyone who expresses a desire to know God once they have conceived of the concept of a supreme being. God will keep that person alive long enough to hear the Gospel. It makes no difference where on earth, or how isolated that person may be. Or, do you not think that the God who spoke the universe into existance can get the Gospel to anyone, no matter where on earth they are? If a person has no desire to know God, then God is not responsible to get the Gospel to that person.

By ignoring the salvation passages that make the issue of a volitional decision absolutely clear, you deny the truth of God's revealed Word, and you are without excuse.
It seems it is you who are ignoring the "volitional decision" for salvation when you believe there is another way to be saved - through the age of accountability doctrine.

I don't doubt that God will get the gospel to all people. But we are way off topic now.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:18 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,422,645 times
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To get back on topic, I believe the OP actually makes a very good case for "soul sleep".

The scriptures that are presented as "anti-soul sleep" have to be stretched to show that there is consciousness while in a death state.

Some basic facts to consider:


Death means to be dead. NOT Alive. Being alive is the opposite of death. So if one is dead, they are not alive. Yet many people believe death is simply being "alive in another location". This is completely contradictory to a reasonable definition of the word death.

Christ died for our sins. It doesn't say Christ's body died for our sin. Christ himself, the persona, the consciousness - that is who died for our sins. And if Christ died, then He was dead, NOT alive.


Christ was resurrected after 3 days. He became alive again! This is our hope. The wages of sin is death, so all will die. But we will not stay dead because Christ has shown us that resurrection is possible. We will all be made alive again some day.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:42 AM
 
20,351 posts, read 15,726,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
It seems it is you who are ignoring the "volitional decision" for salvation when you believe there is another way to be saved - through the age of accountability doctrine.

I don't doubt that God will get the gospel to all people. But we are way off topic now.
You just don't get it. There is only one way of salvation. If you are not able to distinquish between being able to make a decision and being held accountable for that decision, and not being able to make a decision because of not having the mental development to do so and therefore being saved by the grace of God based on the work of Christ, then you just don't get it.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:50 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,422,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You just don't get it. There is only one way of salvation. If you are not able to distinquish between being able to make a decision and being held accountable for that decision, and not being able to make a decision because of not having the mental development to do so and therefore being saved by the grace of God based on the work of Christ, then you just don't get it.
And what you don't get is many athiests right now don't have the capability to make a decision for Christ because Christ has simply not been revealed to them in the same way He has to you and me. How can God hold someone accountable for their "decision" when they have never heard of Christ or don't understand Christ?



Its not man that enables himself to believe in Christ. Its God who draws people to Christ.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:55 AM
 
20,351 posts, read 15,726,172 times
Reputation: 7492
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
To get back on topic, I believe the OP actually makes a very good case for "soul sleep".

The scriptures that are presented as "anti-soul sleep" have to be stretched to show that there is consciousness while in a death state.

Some basic facts to consider:


Death means to be dead. NOT Alive. Being alive is the opposite of death. So if one is dead, they are not alive. Yet many people believe death is simply being "alive in another location". This is completely contradictory to a reasonable definition of the word death.

Christ died for our sins. It doesn't say Christ's body died for our sin. Christ himself, the persona, the consciousness - that is who died for our sins. And if Christ died, then He was dead, NOT alive.


Christ was resurrected after 3 days. He became alive again! This is our hope. The wages of sin is death, so all will die. But we will not stay dead because Christ has shown us that resurrection is possible. We will all be made alive again some day.
The OP is not defending soul sleep. He is refuting it.

The word of God distinquishes between six kinds of death. 1)Spiritual death; 2)Physical death; 3) temporal death; 4)positional death; 5) sexual death; 6) the second death. I gave the passages in some other thread. Look it up.

Look back at post #46 on this thread. There is no stretching what so ever. The Revelation verses plainly and clearly show the conscious soul in Heaven
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are forgetting much!!!

Isaiah 14:13-14 The five ''I wills'' of Satan. And anyone who thinks that this is not addressed to Satan had better look to the preceding verse 12.

It is pointless to continue with this. You are locked into your false beliefs and it seems that nothing is going to get through to you. So be it.
Mike, Isaiah 14:13-14 says nothing Satan thinking he is as or more capable as God. This passage, if it truly does refer to Satan, is only talking about his pride in wanting to be like God, not more than God. Nevertheless this is the least of your mistakes as far as i understand, so i will not harp on it.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-20-2009 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:23 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God provided the Cross as the one way of providing salvation without compromising His righteousness. If anyone rejects the way of salvation that God has provided, then God must sentence that person to the lake of fire.

Final answer.
You talk allot about what God must do ... God doesn't have to do anything that he doesn't want to do. In fact everything God does is his own good pleasure. You act as if God is cringing at the thought of the lake of fire which he is just forced to throw people into against his own wishes that all be saved. Your vision and understanding of God is that he is impotent and incapable of accomplishing what he truly desires because mans will is just to big for him to influence. Is mans will the rock God created which is to heavy for even him to lift? So according to you God is not almighty at all, mankind is more mighty in their will and God is just powerless to change most of them or to save the vast majority of mankind.

What a weak and sad God you believe in ... He is doomed to suffer the torment of his own creation because he just cant do enough to complete his mission to save the world. He must watch his poor wretched creation which he made go up in flames for the rest of eternity. How pathetic ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-20-2009 at 12:37 PM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:30 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God gets the Gospel to anyone who expresses a desire to know God once they have conceived of the concept of a supreme being. God will keep that person alive long enough to hear the Gospel. It makes no difference where on earth, or how isolated that person may be. Or, do you not think that the God who spoke the universe into existance can get the Gospel to anyone, no matter where on earth they are? If a person has no desire to know God, then God is not responsible to get the Gospel to that person.

By ignoring the salvation passages that make the issue of a volitional decision absolutely clear, you deny the truth of God's revealed Word, and you are without excuse.

What about all those heathen nations who were given neither the law or the gospel? Those heathen nations that existed before the birth of Christ and before his death and resurrection? So according to you those heathen nations who never had a chance to believe in Jesus are in heaven? And what about those heathens that still exist on earth now who still have never heard of the gospel of Christ, such as those head hunters and the like that live in isolated wildernesses in the amazon of whatever? And all those who live in other isolated regions before the gospel was ever taught in those locations?

Again, off topic, i just think it is so interesting how fundies say you have to choose to believe in Jesus before you die to be saved, then they start making exceptions to the rules for people who they feel sorry for or are unable to imagine being burned for ever like babies and the mentally handicapped, and how that same concept of "they didn't have a chance to make a choice to believe in Christ" suddenly stops when it comes to people of other cultures in places and times that never even heard of Christ. Can you say "legalistic loop holes"?
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