U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-18-2009, 06:15 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,097,230 times
Reputation: 1470

Advertisements

After reading another poster's thread on Soul Sleep and I know this topic has been beaten into the water several times, but the Lord has led me to start up this topic using all of the verses that seem to support this doctrine. Support for the doctrine of soul sleep has generally been found in these following verses:

Matt. 9:24
He said to them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they derided him.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who slept, arose,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Moreover, there are scriptures that apparently teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do itwith thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I dothis day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


After reading these verses, they do appear to overwhelmingly lean toward the doctrine of soul sleep. But there seems to be a clear explanation for why the bible talks about death as sleeping. One way of looking at death is simply from a metaphorical point of view. Scripture represents death metaphorically as "sleep" simply to indicate that death is only TEMPORARY for christians, just as sleep is temporary. This can be clearly seen when Jesus tells his disciples, for example, about the death of Lazarus. He says:These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

We should noticed that Jesues does not say, The soul of Lazarus is sleeping, " nor the fact, does any verse say that the soul of a person is sleeping or unconscious ( a statement that would be necessary to prove the doctrine of soul sleep). Instead, Jesus simply says that Lazarus has fallen asleep. Then John explains in the next verses: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John 11:12-13

What about the passages that seem to overwhelmingly demonstrate that souls of believers go immediately into God's presence and enjoy fellowship with him there:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say,and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


These verses all indicate that there is conscious existence and fellowship with God immediately after death for the believer. Jesus did not say, "Today you will no longer have consciousness of anything that is going on," but, "today you will be with me in Paradise" ( Luke 23:43). Certainly the conception of paradise understood at that time was not one of unconscious existence but one of great blessing and joy in the presense of God.

Paul did not say, "My desire is to depart and be unconscious for a long period of time," but rather, "My desire is to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, certainly knew that Christ was not an unconscious, sleeping Savior,but one who was actively living and reigning in heaven. To be with Christ was to enjoy the blessing of fellowship in his presence, and that is why to depart and be with Him was and still is far better. Also, that is why Paul can clearly say, "We would rather be away fromt he body and at home with the Lord."

How about the fact that Hebrews 12:1 says, "We are surrounded by so great a clould of witnesses," just after an entire chapter is spent on the discussion of the faith of Old Testament saints who had died (Heb. 11), and the fact that the Hebrew's writer encourages us to run the race of life with perseverance because we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Here the writer of Hebrews is both suggesting that those who have died and gone before have some awareness of what is going on in the earth.

How about Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10? These Scriptures also clearly show that souls or spirits of those who have died and who have gone to heaven are praying and worshiping, for they cry out with a loud voice:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.


All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and when Scriputure represents death as "sleep", it is simply a metaphorical expression used to indicate that the death of a christian is only temporaray, just as sleep is temporary.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-18-2009, 07:25 PM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
After reading another poster's thread on Soul Sleep and I know this topic has been beaten into the water several times, but the Lord has led me to start up this topic using all of the verses that seem to support this doctrine. Support for the doctrine of soul sleep has generally been found in these following verses:

Matt. 9:24
He said to them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they derided him.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who slept, arose,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Moreover, there are scriptures that apparently teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do itwith thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I dothis day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


After reading these verses, they do appear to overwhelmingly lean toward the doctrine of soul sleep. But there seems to be a clear explanation for why the bible talks about death as sleeping. One way of looking at death is simply from a metaphorical point of view. Scripture represents death metaphorically as "sleep" simply to indicate that death is only TEMPORARY for christians, just as sleep is temporary. This can be clearly seen when Jesus tells his disciples, for example, about the death of Lazarus. He says:These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

We should noticed that Jesues does not say, The soul of Lazarus is sleeping, " nor the fact, does any verse say that the soul of a person is sleeping or unconscious ( a statement that would be necessary to prove the doctrine of soul sleep). Instead, Jesus simply says that Lazarus has fallen asleep. Then John explains in the next verses: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John 11:12-13

What about the passages that seem to overwhelmingly demonstrate that souls of believers go immediately into God's presence and enjoy fellowship with him there:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say,and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


These verses all indicate that there is conscious existence and fellowship with God immediately after death for the believer. Jesus did not say, "Today you will no longer have consciousness of anything that is going on," but, "today you will be with me in Paradise" ( Luke 23:43). Certainly the conception of paradise understood at that time was not one of unconscious existence but one of great blessing and joy in the presense of God.

Paul did not say, "My desire is to depart and be unconscious for a long period of time," but rather, "My desire is to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, certainly knew that Christ was not an unconscious, sleeping Savior,but one who was actively living and reigning in heaven. To be with Christ was to enjoy the blessing of fellowship in his presence, and that is why to depart and be with Him was and still is far better. Also, that is why Paul can clearly say, "We would rather be away fromt he body and at home with the Lord."

How about the fact that Hebrews 12:1 says, "We are surrounded by so great a clould of witnesses," just after an entire chapter is spent on the discussion of the faith of Old Testament saints who had died (Heb. 11), and the fact that the Hebrew's writer encourages us to run the race of life with perseverance because we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Here the writer of Hebrews is both suggesting that those who have died and gone before have some awareness of what is going on in the earth.

How about Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10? These Scriptures also clearly show that souls or spirits of those who have died and who have gone to heaven are praying and worshiping, for they cry out with a loud voice:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.


All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and when Scriputure represents death as "sleep", it is simply a metaphorical expression used to indicate that the death of a christian is only temporaray, just as sleep is temporary.
Thanks for posting this. I had missed Rev. 6:9-11 and Rev. 7:9-10. They are now in my notebook.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 07:58 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,097,230 times
Reputation: 1470
God bless you Mike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,321 times
Reputation: 842
I believe in soulsleep (that the dead are dead) and wrote once that summary:


Soul sleep goes like a red line through the whole Bible:
(Bible quotations from the Darby Translation if not mentioned otherwise)

I. Sheol (sometimes mistranslated "hell") in the Old Testament

Gen. 37:34.35

And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins, and mourned for his son many days. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted, and said, For I will go down to my son into Sheol mourning.

Gen. 42:37.38
And Reuben spoke to his father, saying, Slay my two sons if I bring him not back to thee: give him into my hand, and I will bring him to thee again. But he said, My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he alone is left; and if mischief should befall him by the way in which ye go, then would ye bring down my grey hairs with sorrow to Sheol.

Gen. 44:29-21

And if ye take this one also from me, and mischief should befall him, ye will bring down my grey hairs with misery to Sheol. And now, when I come to thy servant my father, and the lad is not with us, seeing that his life is bound up with his life, it will come to pass when he sees that the lad is not there, that he will die; and thy servants will bring down the grey hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to Sheol.

Jacob expected to go to Sheol when he dies, he also expected Joseph to be there.

Job 14:13

Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret until thine anger be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me, …

Job prayed to be hidden in Sheol, I guess he wanted to die and rest in Sheol.

Isaiah 38:9-11

The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness: I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more.

Hezekiah expected do go to Sheol and cease to exist as it seems to me.
Conclusion: everyone seems to have gone to Sheol in Old Testament times, Sheol is first mentioned in Genesis, where Joseph expects to die and to go to Sheol.

II. Arguments for soul sleep in the Old Testament

Gen. 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.

Gen. 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

Men are called living souls as well as animals are called living souls, the doctrine of immortal soul is unscriptural.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 says:

For what befalleth the children of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other, and they have all one spirit (hb. ruach); and man hath no pre-eminence above the beast: for all is vanity.

Gen. 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou return to the ground: for out of it wast thou taken. For dust thou art; and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job obviously says about the dead, Job 3:11-19

Wherefore did I not die from the womb, come forth from the belly and expire? Why did the knees meet me? and wherefore the breasts, that I should suck? For now should I have lain down and been quiet; I should have slept: then had I been at rest, With kings and counsellors of the earth, who build desolate places for themselves, Or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver; Or as a hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants that have not seen the light. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the wearied are at rest. The prisoners together are at ease; they hear not the voice of the taskmaster. The small and great are there, and the bondman freed from his master.

The Psalms say about the dead:

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who shall give thanks unto thee?

Psalm 13:3 Consider, answer me, O Jehovah my God! lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; thou takest away their breath, they expire and return to their dust.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not Jah, neither any that go down into silence;

Psalm 146:4 His spirit (ruach, sometimes translated breath) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

This are clear words, David is called a prophet in the New Testament,
Acts 2:29.30:
Brethren, let it be allowed to speak with freedom to you concerning the patriarch David, that he has both died and been buried, and his monument is amongst us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet

Also David has not ascended to heaven, For David has not ascended into the heavens, but he says himself… (Acts 2:37)

Salomon says about death: …for man goeth to his age-long home, and the mourners go about the streets; before the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be shattered at the fountain, or the wheel be broken at the cistern; and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit (or breath, hb. ruach) return unto God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:5-8)

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

Daniel 13:13 But do thou go thy way until the end; and thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The apocrypha, though hardly inspired, reveal the Jewish belief in this days that fits well do the doctrine of soul sleep and the words of Job,

David and Salomon:

Sirach 41:1-5 (KJV)

O death, how bitter is the remembrance of thee to a man that liveth at rest in his possessions, unto the man that hath nothing to vex him, and that hath prosperity in all things: yea, unto him that is yet able to receive meat! O death, acceptable is thy sentence unto the needy, and unto him whose strength faileth, that is now in the last age, and is vexed with all things, and to him that despaireth, and hath lost patience! Fear not the sentence of death, remember them that have been before thee, and that come after; for this is the sentence of the Lord over all flesh. And why art thou against the pleasure of the most High? there is no inquisition in the grave (Greek: Hades), whether thou have lived ten, or an hundred, or a thousand years.

Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest. (Ecc. 9:10, Septuagint translation)

III. Arguments for soul sleep and future resurrection in the New Testament

Luke 14:13.14

But when thou makest a feast, call poor, crippled, lame, blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they have not the means to recompense thee; for it shall be recompensed thee in the resurrection of the just.

Luke 20:34-36

And Jesus said to them, The sons of this world marry and are given in marriage, but they who are counted worthy to have part in that age, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

John 5:28.29

Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment.

John 6:40

For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 20:5.6

the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

about Luke 23:43, the Greek text has no commas, that would like this:

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

so it's the translators interpretation how to put the comma, the verse neither suports nor contradicts soulsleep

Last edited by svenM; 10-19-2009 at 02:18 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:16 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
After reading another poster's thread on Soul Sleep and I know this topic has been beaten into the water several times, but the Lord has led me to start up this topic using all of the verses that seem to support this doctrine. Support for the doctrine of soul sleep has generally been found in these following verses:

Matt. 9:24
He said to them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they derided him.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who slept, arose,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Moreover, there are scriptures that apparently teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do itwith thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I dothis day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


After reading these verses, they do appear to overwhelmingly lean toward the doctrine of soul sleep. But there seems to be a clear explanation for why the bible talks about death as sleeping. One way of looking at death is simply from a metaphorical point of view. Scripture represents death metaphorically as "sleep" simply to indicate that death is only TEMPORARY for christians, just as sleep is temporary. This can be clearly seen when Jesus tells his disciples, for example, about the death of Lazarus. He says:These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

We should noticed that Jesues does not say, The soul of Lazarus is sleeping, " nor the fact, does any verse say that the soul of a person is sleeping or unconscious ( a statement that would be necessary to prove the doctrine of soul sleep). Instead, Jesus simply says that Lazarus has fallen asleep. Then John explains in the next verses: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John 11:12-13

What about the passages that seem to overwhelmingly demonstrate that souls of believers go immediately into God's presence and enjoy fellowship with him there:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say,and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


These verses all indicate that there is conscious existence and fellowship with God immediately after death for the believer. Jesus did not say, "Today you will no longer have consciousness of anything that is going on," but, "today you will be with me in Paradise" ( Luke 23:43). Certainly the conception of paradise understood at that time was not one of unconscious existence but one of great blessing and joy in the presense of God.

Paul did not say, "My desire is to depart and be unconscious for a long period of time," but rather, "My desire is to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, certainly knew that Christ was not an unconscious, sleeping Savior,but one who was actively living and reigning in heaven. To be with Christ was to enjoy the blessing of fellowship in his presence, and that is why to depart and be with Him was and still is far better. Also, that is why Paul can clearly say, "We would rather be away fromt he body and at home with the Lord."

How about the fact that Hebrews 12:1 says, "We are surrounded by so great a clould of witnesses," just after an entire chapter is spent on the discussion of the faith of Old Testament saints who had died (Heb. 11), and the fact that the Hebrew's writer encourages us to run the race of life with perseverance because we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Here the writer of Hebrews is both suggesting that those who have died and gone before have some awareness of what is going on in the earth.

How about Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10? These Scriptures also clearly show that souls or spirits of those who have died and who have gone to heaven are praying and worshiping, for they cry out with a loud voice:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.


All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and when Scriputure represents death as "sleep", it is simply a metaphorical expression used to indicate that the death of a christian is only temporary, just as sleep is temporary.
First of all Luke 23:43 is clearly badly punctuated because we know from Christ's own mouth that he had not yet ascended even after the resurrection when he spoke to Mary(Jhn 20:17). All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep ...

you said...
Quote:
All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death
I really don't see how you can say that. Everyone of those passages which you quoted as "evidence" of the conscious soul after death are ambiguous at best and can be easily (and rightly so in my opinion) explained to mean that when we die our spirit(not our conscious mind or soul) or breath of life Goes back to god who gave it. And that because when we die and lose consciousness at the point of death that at the resurrection it will be as if no time has passed at all, so it would seems as if we were immediately in the presence of the lord at the resurrection. But the verses which talk about the fact that the soul ceases from conscious thought etc. are not in the slightest ambiguous but are extremely specific.

If the soul lives on after death then what is the purpose of the resurrection to begin with?

What about this ... ?

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 02:29 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:26 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,986 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

If the soul lives on after death then what is the purpose of the resurrection to begin with?
It's for the body of flesh. Which is why a born again in Christ believer who continues to dwell in the dead Adam flesh on earth submits that dead Adam body to water baptism in the hope of its resurrection, changed elementally, into the image of the New Man.

The soul does not "die", and the "Adam spirit" goes to God at death, but the soul does not go to God, but to the pit below earth; unless that soul has a new Spirit/is born again in Christ's One Living Spirit, and then that one goes to Zion above, to wait for the resurrection of the same body, elementally changed, at the resurrection of it from the grave.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:31 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
It's for the body of flesh. Which is why a born again in Christ believer who continues to dwell in the dead Adam flesh on earth submits that dead Adam body to water baptism in the hope of its resurrection, changed elementally, into the image of the New Man.

The soul does not "die", and the "Adam spirit" goes to God at death, but the soul does not go to God, but to the pit below earth; unless that soul has a new Spirit/is born again in Christ's One Living Spirit, and then that one goes to Zion above, to wait for the resurrection of the same body, elementally changed, at the resurrection of it from the grave.

You didn't answer my question. Why do we need the resurrection of our physical bodies if we are alive and conscious in heaven after we die?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:41 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,986 times
Reputation: 208
"Sheol" is from the Hebrew word for "hollow/pit", and is for the souls of Adam to go wait the resurrection of the body, and is where the fallen angels are chained up at, waiting for the day of judgment.
Before Jesus descended and preached the "Gospel of the Atonement completed" there, to those in the hollow/sheol/the Pit, and took away the righteous who were waiting there, for the Day of Atonement -which would make them "clean" and able to enter into the presence of God on high, to the City of God, called "Zion above" [and they were taken from there to Zion above, which was opened to the souls born in Adam when Jesus finished the Atonement, which was signified by the wall of partition shaken down in heaven, and heard as the earthquake below, when Jesus died], the righteous also descended to the pit/the hollow of earth beneath, to wait the Day of Atonement. But they waited in comfort, while the unrepentant are in torments.

The doctrine of Sheol beneath earth is totally revealed in the writings of 1 Enoch. Because Enoch was shown it and wrote of it, it was thereafter referred to just as Enoch had seen it, in all OT and NT passages, and esp by Jesus, thereafter.

The Book of Enoch
Quote:
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'



I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'



8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated.
And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.

And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime.

Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits.



There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners.
Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:51 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
"Sheol" is from the Hebrew word for "hollow/pit", and is for the souls of Adam to go wait the resurrection of the body, and is where the fallen angels are chained up at, waiting for the day of judgment.
Before Jesus descended and preached the "Gospel of the Atonement completed" there, to those in the hollow/sheol/the Pit, and took away the righteous who were waiting there, for the Day of Atonement -which would make them "clean" and able to enter into the presence of God on high, to the City of God, called "Zion above" [and they were taken from there to Zion above, which was opened to the souls born in Adam when Jesus finished the Atonement, which was signified by the wall of partition shaken down in heaven, and heard as the earthquake below, when Jesus died], the righteous also descended to the pit/the hollow of earth beneath, to wait the Day of Atonement. But they waited in comfort, while the unrepentant are in torments.



The doctrine of Sheol beneath earth is totally revealed in the writings of 1 Enoch. Because Enoch was shown it and wrote of it, it was thereafter referred to just as Enoch had seen it, in all OT and NT passages, and esp by Jesus, thereafter.

The Book of Enoch
First of all, there is a reason why the book of enoch is not a part of the canon ...

Second, The definition of the word Sheol which you have given is based on the king James translation of the bible and the Fundamentalist/orthodox rhetoric associated with it. The literal meaning of the world Sheol is unseen, and it means only the grave. Hades is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol and means roughly the same thing, that is to say it also means literally unseen. If you want to call the grave a pit fine but everyone goes to the grave(sheol/hades) when they die.

Everything else you posted in the above is simply fundamentalist rhetoric which you attach to what the bible actually says about it all. This should be obvious to anyone who has studied the bible closely and the original languages which it was written in.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 02:58 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,986 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You didn't answer my question. Why do we need the resurrection of our physical bodies if we are alive and conscious in heaven after we die?
Because we are made body, spirit and soul, and the soul needs to be clothed with its own body, and will be.
All will be resurrected in their very own, same, DNA coded bodies [without mutations caused by the curse of sin] because Jesus died for and atoned for all in Adam; but those who do not want to seek the Light that lights every seed/individual soul born of Adam [into the world], while they have their being intact, will not be raised in the image of the New Man; but they will be raised in their own Adam flesh, minus the Adam spirit.
And they will be souls indwelling their own their Adam flesh bodies forever, with no Adam spirit.


The unregenerated, in spirit, souls born in Adam will then be cast aways in the Lake of Fire [made for the devil and his angels], and will be undying "worms" forever, in their own Adam flesh bodies, with no possibility to ever be morphosed into the image of the glorious sons of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top