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Thanks Kawgpz and Northsouth, I am earnestly interested in understanding this topic better. While I don't necessarily see myself as a left-brained dominated person overall (I am artistically inclined, for example), I think it is probably safe to say, relative to Christian faith, one might describe me as such. So forgive me if I reduce your poetic sense of faith down a notch or two at times -- it is not my intent to over-simplify or be reductionist in my method of learning, but I often need to temporarily go there before getting into a right-brain interpretation (I often need to break out the ruler, protractor, compass, and calculator first, before putting paint to canvas for much the same reason). If I am close in an understanding, you may want to simply note that I am “very close” but perhaps being too literal or too simplistic, or something like that. I promise the idea will blossom in more creative way, if not here in this discussion, then sometime later in my own musings about life. As to Bible quotes, bring 'em on, if quotes help explain what your faith is about. I am not squeamish in the least bit to Bible quotes.
Returning to our dialog:
Christian humility seems intimately tied to Christian faith, according to Jesus. In contrast, the faith/trust atheists have in science is often compared to the faith/trust Christians have in Christ, yet no one would ever say we also need humility in facing science (and, perhaps, might even stress a need for the opposite -- i.e. science needs to be challenged, questioned, doubted, and repeatedly asked to prove itself, etc.). Humility then, at least to me, seems to be a unique facet to the whole idea of Christian faith that's outside my sense of the dictionary idea of faith. Does that interpretation seem fair to both of you?
Also would I be wrong to see Christian “faith” as being virtually synonymous with the words "trust with complete humility"? Humility being defined by Matthew 18:3-4.
As left-brained as atheists might seem, I am under the opposite impression (perhaps erroneously so) that Christian faith is predominently right-brained. However, Northsouth implied it to more balanced than that, and mentioned that there are intellectual components to Christian faith, at least in his/her perspective. Other than learning scripture, are there other things one might need to learn or figure out (i.e. intellectualize) to discover one's faith in Christ? For example. might is also be a virtual requirement when learning scripture for the first time to do so through a didactic, interactive way, with others more versed in it, rather than merely reading it on one's own in a self-study?
Sorry if I sound a bit like a five year old demanding you explain to me why the sky is blue and sun is yellow....
I am also still interested in knowing if other people here see their own faith in different ways than kawgpz and Northsouth.
Being inquisitive is healthy and keeps your brain on top of things. Nothing wrong with that. I'm a lefty, so I'm pretty much completely right-brained. Very artistic and all that. I don't demand such high standards of needing concrete evidence in God...just everything else. I think what Kawgpz said about comparing faith in God to the wind and love are good analogies. Here's what I did to get answers to questions from God; I didn't ask to see Him, or to hear Him or for Him to prove His existance to me. I prayed for specific things. You must be specific and diligent. At least in my experience.
I prayed for signs....over and over and over. The trick is paying attention and to be ready for anything. It's always something you never expected. Just when I thought I knew what He was trying to tell me, I was proven completely wrong. It's not what I want to see or hear...it's my faith and ability to trust Him to know what is right for me. The first time you receive God's message it will overwhelm you. It is truly an amazing experience. And there is something else....God will make you wait until the very last second to provide for you. But He will provide. That's what makes our faith in Him either stronger or weaker. I see it as a test. I used to be angry about all of these "tests" and what I perceived to be just God messing with us.
It's easy to think that way because logically it makes no sense as to why God would allow all the pain and suffering on Earth. But when you really accept Jesus and God's word, He begins to work miracles on your mind, body and spirit. It is Divinity, I guess. It's initially surrendering yourself to the unknown so you can become knowledgable in all things Christ - does that make sense? It has to involve an initial risk of the leap of faith into the unknown. Sounds like a Star Trek episode. It is very celestial.
Okay, I have said enough. Since you don't mind Bible quotes maybe I can hit on that next time. And as far as reading God's word - I can only tell you what I did. It overwhelmed me so I started by reading a book by Billy Graham and over time I worked up to the Bible. A very good way to slowly work your way into it is a daily devotional that has nothing but scriptures. (I also recommend Billy Graham's "Daily Light on the Daily Path" devotional). And Bible study groups are great for discussions/differences/debates. Not arguments, just getting someone else's interpretation of a scripture, parable, story etc....food for thought. Believe it or not, Christianity does require a whole lot of open-mindedness!
I was force-fed scriptures all of my life, but until I truly accepted Christ I didn't want any part of it. You will see the Bible through new eyes and it will start to make sense. It must be YOUR OWN SEARCH for the truth through God's word. Yes, finding a Church and a Pastor that you identify with and can stay in the word of God with is important, but you still need to search for yourself. Don't let others twist it and turn you away from it. It's the most important research you will ever do.
Excellent! Trust + complete humility = FAITH. See, you DO understand this.
I think God Himself instills faith in us -- through His Word and His actions. For that to happen, we must be willing to listen. Perhaps that's where the humility comes in.
And I think it is more difficult as we get older because we have our own ways of thinking, education that tends to eliminate God from all processes, and think we can control so much more than we actually can.
Romans 10:17 -- So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Unless God (The Holy Spirit) opens our hearts as well as our minds to His Word, we would not accept it as Holy or inspired.
We could never be saved without God's touch upon us first:
Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day." John 6:44
FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
The relationship is personal which is why it is difficult to explain to someone who doesn't believe. It must be experienced, not logically (or illogically) concluded.
I think God Himself instills faith in us -- through His Word and His actions. For that to happen, we must be willing to listen. Perhaps that's where the humility comes in.
And I think it is more difficult as we get older because we have our own ways of thinking, education that tends to eliminate God from all processes, and think we can control so much more than we actually can.
Romans 10:17 -- So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Unless God (The Holy Spirit) opens our hearts as well as our minds to His Word, we would not accept it as Holy or inspired.
We could never be saved without God's touch upon us first:
Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day." John 6:44
FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
The relationship is personal which is why it is difficult to explain to someone who doesn't believe. It must be experienced, not logically (or illogically) concluded.
I got my dictionary definition. I know what I mean when I say this word as a humanist/nonsecularist/agnostic/atheist/non-believer/heretic/etc. However, Christians seem to me to have a much less Earthly sense of this concept than my trusty Oxford unabridged provides. And I gotta admit, that I simply don't understand what a Christian means when they say it "takes faith."
I understand that many may simply feel a non-believer can never get this one, but, can y'all give it a try?
Is it something we are inherently born with and we either choose to ignore it or embrace it? or, is it something in us that people struggle to understand throughout life? or, is it a priveleged kind of "gift from God" that he hands out to some but not to others? or, is it a natural resource -- like water, air, oil, and wood -- that one gathers or harvests somehow from the world around us? Does it have any intellectual components or does one connect with their faith entirely through their heart/emotions?
Is it something you only know what it is once you have it, but there is no way to define it...
HopOnPop, I've read this post, reread this post...browsed through the responses and contemplated and contemplated just how I would tackle this thing. I don't know, as I start here, exactly how it will unfold. But let me see if I can walk through your post and answer for me.
You raise a good point, when you ask what do Christians mean when we say "It takes faith." I don't mean 'trust me'. I don't mean 'Throw your logic out the window because NONE of this will make sense.' I don't mean 'Take everything you think you know about the natural world and forget it because 'This here Bible' is all you need.'
But you didn't ask 'What don't you mean'...kinda got off on a tangent there, eh? Like I said, I'm just letting this flow through my fingers, sorry.
Anyway, I guess, for me, 'It take faith' means, try it on, see if it fits, kick the tires, consider all the angles and then make your own call. See, my job isn't to get you to believe anything, it's just to tell you there's something to believe in. The believing/not believing part is between you and God. I show Him to you by my life, my words, my actions, and the rest is between you and Him.
I'll tell you this, and I know I'm getting OT but oh well. I'll even cap it all so as to draw attention to those who skim, they are probably the ones I'm speaking to....MOST CHRISTIANS HAVE FORGOTTEN WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE LOST, UNSAVED, AND AN UNBELIEVER. See, everybody is either where you are or has been where you are.
I had to get broken to come to Him. I had to get broken again to come back to Him. Argh, way OT now....let me reel myself back in.....
FAITH....I do think, no know, everyone has the capacity for faith, some just don't like how it feels to be standing there having to trust something you can't see. It is a priviledge from God AND it's a natural resource. It has a bevy of intellictual components, but not so much that one can 'figure out' God.
I've said frequently, don't know if you've reead it on other threads, that it takes faith, but not blind faith. The more I shut my eyes and say 'OK, God, you gotta do this' the more I find when I open my eyes it's already done.
I probably won't like that after I hit 'Submit' but....without going longer and deeper....that's Alpha...in a full-blown nut shell...
Hop on Pop....I would highly recommend reading "Summa Theologica" by St. Thomas Aquinas...it oulines the "proofs" in a very logical way for the existance of God.
I would also highly encourage you to seek out information and delve into the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church. It encompasses the intellectual, historical and spirtual depth and richness that I think you may be persuing.
Christian Faith is the Belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah, Lord, God, and personal savior. That belief in Jesus is the Only way to heaven, that belief in his death, burial and resurrection to pay for the sins of humanity, that if you believe in Jesus and follow him, you are saved from eternal death to Life with God
I know that without engaging in more of a dialog here, this kind of thread may seem kind of hollow to many of you who posted. However, I hope it is enough for me to tell you all that I am getting exactly what I sought from your posts. I am furiously steeped in digesting much of it (and probably will do so for many weeks ahead). I appreciate the many points of view (more than I thought I would get) and I very much appreciate the source material references (it gives me something to study outside of my time on this forum – something I think many of us may only have a faint memory of prior to discovering the CD forum). I am already quite familiar with many of these references, but I was far more interested to see what many of you presented as the words that explained your faith.
I was once introduced to a spiritual practice of the indigenous people of the South Seas nation of Vanuatu. It consists of a 50 to 75 foot tower, a few strong vines tied around your legs, and the scariest "leap of faith" one can take -- a head long plunge toward the ground from the top of the tower! No one ever measures just how tall the tower is, or how tall the people jumping are, or how much the vines might stretch, or make any sort of calculations to help ensure safety. They merely have faith that they will attach to just that "perfect" spot on the vines so that the top of their head brush against the ground. When I first learned about this Vanuatuan ritual, it became clear to me that I had no idea what it was like to have this kind of faith. I realized that what some people need to do to live life to the fullest potential may never work the same way for me.
Since metaphors seem to be a good way to exchange our understanding of faith in God, I offer this unrelated ritual to illustrate just what sense I have for what many of you are expressing here. In short, I am in awe of your ability to have such complete trust. You folks are daredevils and thrill seekers who are willing to leap from the top of a tower straight for God all in hopes that you brush up against him. While I am quite content to only watch as you do this, you have my utmost admiration with such attempts to bring fullness into your lives through your leaps of faith.
This dialog has made me realize that, perhaps, I actually do understand the definition of Christian faith in God, but, I do not (and possibly cannot completely) understand what it means to be one of the faithful. As ILNC mentioned so eloquently, faith in God “must be experienced and cannot be logically (or illogically) concluded.” I agree. Although, I still think there is a lot one can actually learn from standing on the outside and looking in. I am quite content doing this with the help from people such as you. Thanks to everyone who posted here.
I know that without engaging in more of a dialog here, this kind of thread may seem kind of hollow to many of you who posted. However, I hope it is enough for me to tell you all that I am getting exactly what I sought from your posts. I am furiously steeped in digesting much of it (and probably will do so for many weeks ahead). I appreciate the many points of view (more than I thought I would get) and I very much appreciate the source material references (it gives me something to study outside of my time on this forum – something I think many of us may only have a faint memory of prior to discovering the CD forum). I am already quite familiar with many of these references, but I was far more interested to see what many of you presented as the words that explained your faith.
I was once introduced to a spiritual practice of the indigenous people of the South Seas nation of Vanuatu. It consists of a 50 to 75 foot tower, a few strong vines tied around your legs, and the scariest "leap of faith" one can take -- a head long plunge toward the ground from the top of the tower! No one ever measures just how tall the tower is, or how tall the people jumping are, or how much the vines might stretch, or make any sort of calculations to help ensure safety. They merely have faith that they will attach to just that "perfect" spot on the vines so that the top of their head brush against the ground. When I first learned about this Vanuatuan ritual, it became clear to me that I had no idea what it was like to have this kind of faith. I realized that what some people need to do to live life to the fullest potential may never work the same way for me.
Since metaphors seem to be a good way to exchange our understanding of faith in God, I offer this unrelated ritual to illustrate just what sense I have for what many of you are expressing here. In short, I am in awe of your ability to have such complete trust. You folks are daredevils and thrill seekers who are willing to leap from the top of a tower straight for God all in hopes that you brush up against him. While I am quite content to only watch as you do this, you have my utmost admiration with such attempts to bring fullness into your lives through your leaps of faith.
This dialog has made me realize that, perhaps, I actually do understand the definition of Christian faith in God, but, I do not (and possibly cannot completely) understand what it means to be one of the faithful. As ILNC mentioned so eloquently, faith in God “must be experienced and cannot be logically (or illogically) concluded.” I agree. Although, I still think there is a lot one can actually learn from standing on the outside and looking in. I am quite content doing this with the help from people such as you. Thanks to everyone who posted here.
Well we're all trying to learn from each other, eh?
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I think what Kawgpz said about comparing faith in God to the wind and love are good analogies. Here's what I did to get answers to questions from God; I didn't ask to see Him, or to hear Him or for Him to prove His existance to me. I prayed for specific things. You must be specific and diligent. At least in my experience.
