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I got my dictionary definition. I know what I mean when I say this word as a humanist/nonsecularist/agnostic/atheist/non-believer/heretic/etc. However, Christians seem to me to have a much less Earthly sense of this concept than my trusty Oxford unabridged provides. And I gotta admit, that I simply don't understand what a Christian means when they say it "takes faith."
I understand that many may simply feel a non-believer can never get this one, but, can y'all give it a try?
Is it something we are inherently born with and we either choose to ignore it or embrace it? or, is it something in us that people struggle to understand throughout life? or, is it a priveleged kind of "gift from God" that he hands out to some but not to others? or, is it a natural resource -- like water, air, oil, and wood -- that one gathers or harvests somehow from the world around us? Does it have any intellectual components or does one connect with their faith entirely through their heart/emotions?
Is it something you only know what it is once you have it, but there is no way to define it...
I got my dictionary definition. I know what I mean when I say this word as a humanist/nonsecularist/agnostic/atheist/non-believer/heretic/etc. However, Christians seem to me to have a much less Earthly sense of this concept than my trusty Oxford unabridged provides. And I gotta admit, that I simply don't understand what a Christian means when they say it "takes faith."
I understand that many may simply feel a non-believer can never get this one, but, can y'all give it a try?
Is it something we are inherently born with and we either choose to ignore it or embrace it? or, is it something in us that people struggle to understand throughout life? or, is it a priveleged kind of "gift from God" that he hands out to some but not to others? or, is it a natural resource -- like water, air, oil, and wood -- that one gathers or harvests somehow from the world around us? Does it have any intellectual components or does one connect with their faith entirely through their heart/emotions?
Is it something you only know what it is once you have it, but there is no way to define it...
Well, let me do the best I can here.
First of all, Christianity IS NOT something you can FIND or DEFINE in a dictionary. When we say it takes faith, it's because you have to actually HUMBLE yourself in the eyes of God and learn to believe in, trust and have "faith" in something you cannot physically see with your own to eyes. Here's a "simple" (maybe TOO simple) of and example, but if I come up with a better one I will let you know : You cannot see the wind, but you can FEEL the wind. But just because you cannot SEE the wind, that doesn't mean it isn't there. You have "faith" that the wind IS INDEED THERE. Like I said, that's probably a little too simple. Perhaps, another example may be...While growing up, maybe your father never said "I love you". However, through his kind words or things he did for you, you just "knew" (had faith) that he really did/does love you. Am I making sense yet? You know how when you was a kid, there used to be a game where someone would stand behind you and you were to fall backwards and have "faith" that the person would catch you?
Jesus says you are to have faith like a child:
Matthew 18:3-4 (New King James Version)
3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
This just simply means that you are to have childlike faith. It is SO easy for a child to have faith in something that they cannot see. For us adults, it is quite a bit harder as we try to over analyze things too much. IMHO (from the ones I personally know), most Atheists are left brained. Meaning, the logical side. Everything has to have a scientific conclusion...(I know the Atheists are thinking to themselves..."well DUHHHHH" lol).
Not everything in life is based on science. And for the Atheists...I challenge each of you to tell me HOW you can define LOVE as scientific and make it MAKE SENSE?! LOVE is the BEST thing I can think of to use to define Christianity. Why does one LOVE? HOW does one LOVE? What draws you to LOVE someone? Well, that is pretty much what it is like to be a Christian. You can't really "explain" it...it's just there.
Yes, being saved (being a Christian) IS a GIFT FROM GOD, but NO, it isn't "privledged" or handed out to a chosen few. It is a gift from God to ANYONE that will humble their heart and believe in Jesus.
Ephesians 2:7-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Acts 16:31
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
I hope you don't mind me quoting scripture. I know a lot of people on here do not believe the Bible, however this is where "FAITH" comes in to play. You have to have "faith" to believe in God, Jesus and the Bible
Yes, it is something that you only really "know" once you have it, and YES it is VERY HARD to define to someone that is a non-believer.
I'm sorry this was so long winded, but there really is no short answer.
If you have anymore questions, I will be happy to do my best to answer!
Great thread! Sounds like you really want to know and are curious...Thanks HOP!
Humbling yourself is key. You must let go....and let God. It's a process, that's why when people are initially saved they are called "babes in Christ". It is yours for the taking, if only you will receive Him. Faith IS a natural resource, and it's free. It's letting go of your infinite questions, doubts, fears, anger and just plain disbelief because you don't understand His plan and being satisfied that we will never know the answers in this life. I'm saving all of my questions for heaven. Right now faith is more important. Faith is extremely intellectual because God requires it from us, and He is The Supreme Intelligence of the Universe. But it also involves the emotions, the heart and the soul. It is your very core.
Thanks Kawgpz and Northsouth, I am earnestly interested in understanding this topic better. While I don't necessarily see myself as a left-brained dominated person overall (I am artistically inclined, for example), I think it is probably safe to say, relative to Christian faith, one might describe me as such. So forgive me if I reduce your poetic sense of faith down a notch or two at times -- it is not my intent to over-simplify or be reductionist in my method of learning, but I often need to temporarily go there before getting into a right-brain interpretation (I often need to break out the ruler, protractor, compass, and calculator first, before putting paint to canvas for much the same reason). If I am close in an understanding, you may want to simply note that I am “very close” but perhaps being too literal or too simplistic, or something like that. I promise the idea will blossom in more creative way, if not here in this discussion, then sometime later in my own musings about life. As to Bible quotes, bring 'em on, if quotes help explain what your faith is about. I am not squeamish in the least bit to Bible quotes.
Returning to our dialog:
Christian humility seems intimately tied to Christian faith, according to Jesus. In contrast, the faith/trust atheists have in science is often compared to the faith/trust Christians have in Christ, yet no one would ever say we also need humility in facing science (and, perhaps, might even stress a need for the opposite -- i.e. science needs to be challenged, questioned, doubted, and repeatedly asked to prove itself, etc.). Humility then, at least to me, seems to be a unique facet to the whole idea of Christian faith that's outside my sense of the dictionary idea of faith. Does that interpretation seem fair to both of you?
Also would I be wrong to see Christian “faith” as being virtually synonymous with the words "trust with complete humility"? Humility being defined by Matthew 18:3-4.
As left-brained as atheists might seem, I am under the opposite impression (perhaps erroneously so) that Christian faith is predominently right-brained. However, Northsouth implied it to more balanced than that, and mentioned that there are intellectual components to Christian faith, at least in his/her perspective. Other than learning scripture, are there other things one might need to learn or figure out (i.e. intellectualize) to discover one's faith in Christ? For example. might is also be a virtual requirement when learning scripture for the first time to do so through a didactic, interactive way, with others more versed in it, rather than merely reading it on one's own in a self-study?
Sorry if I sound a bit like a five year old demanding you explain to me why the sky is blue and sun is yellow....
I am also still interested in knowing if other people here see their own faith in different ways than kawgpz and Northsouth.
It's letting go of your infinite questions, doubts, fears, anger and just plain disbelief because you don't understand His plan and being satisfied that we will never know the answers in this life. I'm saving all of my questions for heaven.
Well, you're a better person than me, Northsouth, because I find that I have just as many questions, doubts, and sometimes, just plain disbelief, as I did when I was a kid. Not necessarily on every point and facet, but certainly enough to make the eyebrows of many, if not most fundamentalist Christians go up a notch or two, (at the very least). The difference being that I now I have more outlets for exploring, learning, and discovering than I did then. I don't have anyone insisting that I don't ask questions, (well, they might insist, but I can ignore them). I don't have to kowtow or apologize to anyone when they get indignant whenever I question the Bible, or the Christian faith, etc., (or any other faith, for that matter). I don't allow others to dictate to me, what I should or should not believe, simply because that is how they believe.
As far as saving all of my questions for heaven, well, that's just not going to work for me. Not because I expect all of my questions to be answered, but simply because I cannot find myself capable of not asking them. Asking God questions is part of being human. How many times do we see in the Bible, people crying to God, and asking questions, indeed, demanding answers? Not to say that God always answered them, at least satisfactorily, since he has that option. But, that did not keep them from asking. And, frankly, I think it would be a pretty poor Creator, who could not handle, actually expect, questions from his creations. Our questioning minds are part of our makeup. Which is actually a good thing, because without it, nothing would be changed, nothing would be discovered. Questions are what cause people to dig deeper, whether it be from mental or emotional plane, or from a spriritual one.
Well, you're a better person than me, Northsouth, because I find that I have just as many questions, doubts, and sometimes, just plain disbelief, as I did when I was a kid. Not necessarily on every point and facet, but certainly enough to make the eyebrows of many, if not most fundamentalist Christians go up a notch or two, (at the very least). The difference being that I now I have more outlets for exploring, learning, and discovering than I did then. I don't have anyone insisting that I don't ask questions, (well, they might insist, but I can ignore them). I don't have to kowtow or apologize to anyone when they get indignant whenever I question the Bible, or the Christian faith, etc., (or any other faith, for that matter). I don't allow others to dictate to me, what I should or should not believe, simply because that is how they believe.
As far as saving all of my questions for heaven, well, that's just not going to work for me. Not because I expect all of my questions to be answered, but simply because I cannot find myself capable of not asking them. Asking God questions is part of being human. How many times do we see in the Bible, people crying to God, and asking questions, indeed, demanding answers? Not to say that God always answered them, at least satisfactorily, since he has that option. But, that did not keep them from asking. And, frankly, I think it would be a pretty poor Creator, who could not handle, actually expect, questions from his creations. Our questioning minds are part of our makeup. Which is actually a good thing, because without it, nothing would be changed, nothing would be discovered. Questions are what cause people to dig deeper, whether it be from mental or emotional plane, or from a spriritual one.
That's a great post. Can't give ya rep privately, done so too frequently...so I'll give it publicaly.
I got my dictionary definition. I know what I mean when I say this word as a humanist/nonsecularist/agnostic/atheist/non-believer/heretic/etc. However, Christians seem to me to have a much less Earthly sense of this concept than my trusty Oxford unabridged provides. And I gotta admit, that I simply don't understand what a Christian means when they say it "takes faith."
When a Christain says it just "takes faith" it is important to distinguish what that faith is in. Faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Faith that God has an eternal plan for all our lives. Faith that the atoning blood of Christ can wash us clean and through it we may gain exaltation. Anyone can have faith in something like gravity or that the sun will come up tomorrow; but it if faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master that will truly guide our lives and bring us true joy.
Is it something we are inherently born with and we either choose to ignore it or embrace it? or, is it something in us that people struggle to understand throughout life? or, is it a priveleged kind of "gift from God" that he hands out to some but not to others? or, is it a natural resource -- like water, air, oil, and wood -- that one gathers or harvests somehow from the world around us? Does it have any intellectual components or does one connect with their faith entirely through their heart/emotions?
Is it something you only know what it is once you have it, but there is no way to define it...
I believe that we are all born with the light of Christ inside us and it is our choice whether to embrace or ignore it. It is definately something people struggle with throughout there lives; some more or less than others. I believe that some are blessed with a strength of faith that is unshakeable and for others struggling with their faith is part of the test of life. It is there for all of us thow; His arms are open and waiting for anyone who will meet Him. As far as worldly intellect I do think there is connections but I am not really intellectual enough to go into that. I believe that one must possess a certain amount of spiritual intelligence though which is far more valuable than anything the world can offer. A long time ago a girl I knew came up with this saying and I've never forgotten it: Faith is the teddy bear to fear.
The world can plant all kinds of doubt and fears into one's heart but it is only throu Jesus Christ (spiritual intelligence) that those doubts and fears can be completely resolved.
I have a very deep and strong faith in God. It didn't happen over night, but over the years developing a relationship with God, seeing Him answer my prayers, feeling His presence it has grown stronger. I trust Him with all my heart, I see how He has kept his promises and is faithful to what He said He would do.
I think the great thing that keeps people from having faith is lack of trust in in God. I think of Abraham and how much faith he had in God when told him to sacrifice his son, Abraham trusted God and knew he would come back with his son. Chapter 11 in Hebrews a great place to learn about faith. Verse 1-3 "What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for if going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith. By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen".
Little faith: Says I know God can, will he?
Great faith: Says I know God can and He will.
Perfect faith: Says It's as good as done, God made the promise.
"Also would I be wrong to see Christian “faith” as being virtually synonymous with the words "trust with complete humility"? Humility being defined by Matthew 18:3-4."
That is a good way of putting it. However, faith for some vary for others. Everyon's faith is not necessarily based on the same guidelines. Some have faith because of an illness or tragic situation that has drawn them close to the Lord, some have had faith all of their lives etc. However, I have seen more people come to God because they heard the right message at the right time. Sometimes God manages to open ones ears (and hearts) at just the right time in their life and also provides the opportunity for the right preacher or evangelist to speak a message almost as if it were meant JUST FOR YOU! (BTW, not ALL evangeslits are as bad as they are made out to be, some are quite awesome...and when I say evangelist, I am not necessarily talking about the ones you see on tv. The BEST evangelists I have ever heard have NOT made it to TV stardom!)
Here is another good scripture for faith:
Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 17:19-21 (in Context) Matthew 17 (Whole Chapter)
Here's a little something I would like to share with you. Maybe kind of off topic in a way, but it shows you the mind of a child (this is not my child, but a story that was sent to me from someone I KNOW):
One rainy afternoon I was driving along one of the main streets of town, taking those extra precautions necessary when the roads are wet and slick.
Suddenly my daughter Aspen spoke up from her relaxed position in her seat. "Dad, I'm thinking of something."
This announcement usually meant she had been pondering some fact for a while, and was now ready to expound all that her six-year-old mind had discovered. I was eager to hear.
"What are you thinking?" I asked.
"The rain!" she began, "is like sin, and the windshield wipers are like God wiping our sins away."
After the chill bumps raced up my arms I was able to respond. "That's really good, Aspen."
Then my curiosity broke in. How far would this little girl take this revelation?
So I asked... "Do you notice how the rain keeps on coming? What does that tell you?"
Aspen didn't hesitate one moment with her answer: "We keep on sinning, and God just keeps on forgiving us."
I will always remember this whenever I turn my wipers on.
Last edited by kawgpz550; 05-09-2007 at 10:43 AM..
Reason: Added Bible verse
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When we say it takes faith, it's because you have to actually HUMBLE yourself in the eyes of God and learn to believe in, trust and have "faith" in something you cannot physically see with your own to eyes. Here's a "simple" (maybe TOO simple) of and example, but if I come up with a better one I will let you know 
: You cannot see the wind, but you can FEEL the wind. But just because you cannot SEE the wind, that doesn't mean it isn't there. You have "faith" that the wind IS INDEED THERE. Like I said, that's probably a little too simple. Perhaps, another example may be...While growing up, maybe your father never said "I love you". However, through his kind words or things he did for you, you just "knew" (had faith) that he really did/does love you. Am I making sense yet? You know how when you was a kid, there used to be a game where someone would stand behind you and you were to fall backwards and have "faith" that the person would catch you?
LOVE is the BEST thing I can think of to use to define Christianity. Why does one LOVE? HOW does one LOVE? What draws you to LOVE someone? Well, that is pretty much what it is like to be a Christian. You can't really "explain" it...it's just there.
I believe that one must possess a certain amount of spiritual intelligence though which is far more valuable than anything the world can offer. A long time ago a girl I knew came up with this saying and I've never forgotten it: Faith is the teddy bear to fear.
