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Old 10-20-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 9,399,705 times
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One thing that all Christians have in common whether they be Catholic, Protestant , Baptist , Lutheran, Methodist and Non-Denomonational Evangelical is the cross. They all believe Jesus died for our sins,He paid for us all. He shed blood at Calvary for our iniquities.

The cross is the main thing to remember,the one's who come to Christ will want to be sanctified in His Holy name,be set apart wanting to be more Christ-like and wanting to do the will of the Lord. When one figures that one alone can't do it by oneself,can't save oneself unless we come to the Lord and put it in His hands then will one will know the love and the freedom handed down one will not beat oneself over the head with laws as the Lord has forgiven us of our sins.

Last edited by noland123; 10-20-2009 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:49 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,508,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StirringWaters View Post
Matthew 23:8-12 " 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

Sorry...just a reminder.
(Matthew 23:8-12)
Jesus is condemning pride and pretense. Christ is forbidding the use of such names as spiritual titles that somehow accord undue spiritual authority to a human being as he were the source of truth rather than God's word, like the "Pope" and "Holy Father" (ring a bell)

(John 14:26) Jesus is addressing the apostles not us

(Ephesians 4:11Ė12)
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare Godís people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

(1 Corinthians 12:28)
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:51 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,508,390 times
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
So...you don't believe that GOD AND ONLY GOD can reaveal the truth to us? You believe some quasi biblical teacher has more insight into the truth of God than GOD HIMSELF?
I never said that, I said the biblical teacher has more insight than you. God gave gifts of teaching/ interpretation to certain people and we should learn from them comparing what they teach to scripture and praying over it. Do you possess such a gift?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-20-2009 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,148,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I never said that but God gave gifts of teaching/ interpretation. Do you possess such a gift?
He may give those gifts to certain individuals but in the end, if we want to know the "Truth"...that is revealed by God and only God. I based what I said on your direct quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No June find a good teacher, biggest mistake you can do is think you can do it on your own with just God, that is not even scriptural!
Here in your quote you gave more authority to a teacher than you did God. You put more stock in humans than you do your Creator. No human being can reveal spiritual truth better than God himself and if you think otherwise....well I will pray for you.

My teaching comes directly from God and no one else...even Christ himself said there was only One Teacher...you will never find Gods truth in man made doctrine and dogma and this is evidenced by all the differing beliefs that abound through Christianity...are you not aware that God has done this for a purpose?
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: MI
1,289 posts, read 1,870,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
(Matthew 23:8-12)
Jesus is condemning pride and pretense. Christ is forbidding the use of such names as spiritual titles that somehow accord undue spiritual authority to a human being as he were the source of truth rather than God's word, like the "Pope" and "Holy Father" (ring a bell)

(John 14:26) Jesus is addressing the apostles not us

(Ephesians 4:11Ė12)
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare Godís people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

(1 Corinthians 12:28)
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
Yay...Scripture fight! Ezekiel 34:15. NO ONE comes before my God, my Lord.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,447,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
For reasons she neither understands nor cares to figure out, June has found herself reading and re-reading the book of Romans, as of late. Therein, June has learned a few things, not the least of which how Paul talks about 'the Law.' It would appear to the little heathen (who barely remembers her days of actually studying theology) that there is a distinction made between the 'old Law' or covenant, and the new. If June is reading correctly, (which of course could admittedly be a real long shot) then what she seems to be gleaning is the very fact that with Christ's death and resurrection, the 'old ways' were eradicated. Adherence to the Law would thus appear to become redefined. Interesting. Paul even goes so far as to point out that it is not as 'black and white' as a 'do or do not' contract; but rather, is much more broadly defined against the backdrop of the resurrected Jesus Christ.

Paul also has a thing or two to say about how believers should interact with one another, along with how they should engage with nonbelievers. This particularly caught June's attention, as she found her 'just heathen June self' sitting there on more than one occasion saying to herself "Well I'll be!"

So here's June's question/questions:

What's the deal with legalism? (Fundamentalism, literalism?) June wonders where that comes from, or even how it is possible. What's the deal with the OT 'all or none/black and white' thinking that she reads on these forums so often that would tend to contradict most of what she reads in most of the NT, but lately, in Romans, in particular? June finds it somewhat compelling that she reads one thing here, another there. June finds it especially compelling that there is one attitude conveyed here, yet another there. June can certainly understand how an atheist could become confused. -If they were a dumb atheist. June hopes that she is not, but then again, does one ever really know? Paul advises against arrogance, so June's more inclined to side with that notion for the time being. --It would seem to make so much better sense, along with the fact that humility and humbleness are things June has always tended to value, endorse, and at least attempt to uphold. Arrogance always bothered June, as it so clearly spoke to such vast insecurity in those who so adamantly needed to be 'right.' June doesn't need to be right. For the time being, she would simply like to understand, and thus needs a bit of clarification.

So help June out here: How should June reconcile in her little heathen mind what she reads here, versus what she reads in the book that so many of you are so fond of quoting? How should June reconcile in her little heathen mind what accounts for such vast interpretations of what is so clearly stated as regards the 'law' and how it should be executed (lived out) among believers? How should June reconcile the underlying attitude that Paul conveys by his insight, acceptance, and understanding of human nature in the aftermath of his own conversion, versus what June reads on the Christianity forum that would appear to speak to less than a lovingly accepting attitude towards others? (Fellow believers, or otherwise.) Who should June listen to and why all the discrepancies? Lastly, what accounts for the fact that -more often than not- June can't help but wonder: Are we all reading the same bible?

Disclaimer: June is asking all of the above questions out of a sincere interest in order to better understand, and to possibly gain some insight as to what and why others believe as they do. June is fully aware of the fact that she is reading Romans as a nonbeliever. -But a nonbeliever who is not totally ignorant and clueless. And hopefully neither arrogant, or unkind.

Thanks in advance to those who respond!


Take gentle care.
June is exactly right.. the old is transformed into the new. The 10 commandments became the 2...

I especially like Romans 5:20-21 (not sure why the chapter break here as it seems these two verses make more sense when connected to the next chapter...but) and Romans 6:1-2...

Chapter 5: The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin caused death. We can see that as a natural progression. The law defined what sin was yet it also gave man the opportunity to "try" to be perfect. Of course it was impossible for all of the law to be upheld by one's own power. So God makes the old law transformed into grace. The righteousness of Jesus Christ brought God's grace. Grace and sin are directly proportional. Sin increases... Grace increases.

Chapter 6: What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

The way I take it is that we can sin all we want..for grace increases proportionally... BUT would that be beneficial? No

So christian literals take the ten commandments and say that if you are dead to sin you must follow all the commandments and more in order to have grace. In fact, they go so far as to say that if you are not able to follow all the commandments that you need to say a prayer, do penance... whatever to atone for your sin.

The bible says the opposite. It says that because of the New Law.. you are free.

Gal. 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Literals and fundamentalists (the same to me) are burdening themselves and others again with the old law...

John 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

And my favorite:
Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

It is their own set of rules that keeps them from the freedom and liberty of loving and serving one another.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,148,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StirringWaters View Post
Yay...Scripture fight! Ezekiel 34:15. NO ONE comes before my God, my Lord.
HUH?

Eze 34:15 I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: MI
1,289 posts, read 1,870,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
HUH?

Eze 34:15 I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD.
"I Myself will tend My sheep." Always makes me smile. God gave me rest in that during a rough period, and I will never forget it.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,447,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No June find a good teacher, biggest mistake you can do is think you can do it on your own with just God, that is not even scriptural!
You say some of the creepiest things sometimes... You don't have to be a rocket scientist to notice that the way you speak contradicts so much of the bible. Even an atheist can see it!

Quote:
I wasn't always a fundamentalist infact I couldn't stand them but what I did notice was they were the most adamant about truth when other Christian sects were wishy washy, fundies witness to people, go out on the streets to tell the truth. I mean if hell does exist wouldn't it be a crime if we didn't? Fundamentalist have a higher view of God, fundies defend the gospel better than the other sects- they have the best apologetics and a great history that's not to say we are perfect and not without faults because we do have many but lesser than other sects imo.

That's right June when Jesus came, He fulfilled the laws, the "old ways" NOT LAWS were done away with but Jesus said,
(Matthew 5:17)
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

What was eliminated was work righteousness (doing works to earn your way into heaven) The Mosaic laws were used in the wrong manner, the law was twisted by the pharisees and Saducees forcing Jews to use the laws in obtaining salvation but in actuality the Law was there to show us that it was impossible for us to keep the laws let alone obtaining salvation and that we were in desperate need of a savior which is Jesus.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers...

Quote:
The Apostle Paul taught through his own experiences, trial and error on dealing believers and non believers. It's a daily struggle for us Christians in this respect which is what I admired with Apostle Paul on how he adjusted, how he battled, how he rebuked, how he humbled himself allowed the Holy Spirit to fulfill His role in the believer and we read the Corinthian church which he loved, did so much for, sacrificed much for turned against him and how it ripped his heart to shreds.
Yet Paul was "anti-christ" when he slaughtered, arrested, and condoned the stoning of christians prior to his conversion. His experience was that Jesus is freedom. The Corinthian church became slaves again to the law!

Quote:
As far as taking the bible literally. How else do we take it? Do we not take each other literally? and if God created speech and language structure how else will He communicate with us if not literally?
Is it that Jesus came to enforce the law?

Do you believe that if you follow Jesus that you can follow the law to the letter? or is it that it was not attainable without the gift of grace?

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 884,695 times
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Tho you are no longer under the authority of your third grade teacher, you still retain the teaching you learned under her authority. The law was perfect and good. The Bible tells us that. But it is not the law in and of itself that would make us righteous. It is when the law is written in our hearts and we live by the principals, not the letter. But that isn't easy to see or to accomplish. In fact, only God can accomplish it in us. And He does this very slowly and in ways that we would not choose to learn if we actually had a choice in the matter, lol. Sort of like praying, "God give me patience! And give it to me NOW!!!" lol We get patience by having to wait a LOOONG time for something.

I don't agree that the Bible is just the milk. There is SO MUCH buried under the outer layers of each story. The feasts have tons of good things for us to learn about God, how we are his crop and He will have His firstfruits, his main crop and finally the gleanings, till there is nothing left behind.

Ruth teaches us about the Kinsman redeemer and how He provides for the poor and those who had to leave for a far country for awhile because of drought/famine. Like the Prodigal son. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, all have great lessons other that what we initially see.

Leprosy symbolizes sin perfectly, but God can clean the foulest leper with a word.

Every law gives us a facet of God. I am awed by the insights of Steven Jones in that regard. God's law states that the owner of the land is responsible if a neighbor's dumb beast gets onto your land and falls into a pit which you left uncovered. The house owner is responsible if a neighbor is enjoying a visit with you on your roof and falls off because you didn't have it guarded properly. hmmmm. And the list goes on and on.

God CAN certainly give each of us the insight. For some of us, such as myself, He directs us to someone else who He already gave this insight to. Some teachers I learned a lot from and then moved on and learned more from the next teacher. Do I agree with EVERYTHING a certain teacher offers? no. Not sure why. All I know is that when I was plagued to finding better answers than the adherents to my particular church could offer, I found a whole new aspect to God and I am eternally grateful.
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