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Old 10-20-2009, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,116,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
June, I struggle with Romans, and whether the law is null or void . .


John says . . those who do not keep the commandments are liars . . . . Jesus said . . if you love him, keep my father's commandments . . . all through the New Testament, even in the last book, we read that those who keep the commandments.

I used to think that when we strived to keep the commandments, it was legalism, legalistic . . .

But when you look at the commandments . . . they are all about LOVE . . . the first 4 about love of God . . . and the last 6 love of our fellow man . . .

I think that we all strive to keep them . . . but we are not SAVED by them . . . but I don't think Jesus voided out these commandments, instead . . . he said not only not to commit adultery . . don't lust . . . if we steal, cut off our hand . . . it took them further . . .

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).

"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).

"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18).
Jesus boiled down the entire law to this: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

Even following these laws are very hard for some Christians because they are STILL very carnal and into themselves and the world around them....that is why Christ told us to "DENY OURSELVES". Some think that salvation is just a song and a prayer...this is so far from the truth of what God calls us to do. We have to die daily to self...once we have crucified our old carnal man...we will see God clearly. The law and the prophets can be summed up into one thing....LOVE. LOVE covers it all and there is nothing else that you need to see the Light and Love of God. That is where the true freedom lies that Paul tried to impart to us.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,038,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No June find a good teacher, biggest mistake you can do is think you can do it on your own with just God, that is not even scriptural!

I wasn't always a fundamentalist infact I couldn't stand them but what I did notice was they were the most adamant about truth when other Christian sects were wishy washy, fundies witness to people, go out on the streets to tell the truth. I mean if hell does exist wouldn't it be a crime if we didn't? Fundamentalist have a higher view of God, fundies defend the gospel better than the other sects- they have the best apologetics and a great history that's not to say we are perfect and not without faults because we do have many but lesser than other sects imo.
I find it interesting, Fundamentalist, that your choice was made by how adamant people were that they insisted their truth was the correct truth. It seems to me that you laid a lot down on the line - a change in perception, a change in belief, a change in understanding, a change in mentality - all based on the stalwart defense mechanisms of those who refuse to change their minds in the first place.

Of course, there is another failure in judicious logic that I sense here. For someone who repeatedly blathers on with excessive foofaraw about how important it is that people quote chapter and verse what part of the Bible they got something out of - it seems that by your own admission you'd prefer people to tell you precisely what to believe and as long as there is some sort of scriptural lamentation to support it and those who are telling you what to believe agree then, as far as your concerned, it must be "truth."

Honestly, I can only imagine that to a person seeking or wanting to come to some sort of spiritual agreement, that you simply don't strike me as any sort of cognoscente of spiritual anything. Rather, you give the blatant appearance of someone who has not had a single iota of thought for oneself in what you believe with the exception of your initial flea-like jump from one organism to the next. After you made the jump, much like a flea, you simply latched on for the ride and suck the blood of whatever organism you've decided to eat for the day.

I think it necessary to understand that in order to truly talk to those you feel are "searching" that recommending some sort of person to shove information down their throat is probably not the best of recommendations. Most people of the world pride themselves on having some sort of original thought or visceral interpretation of the world around them while not having whomever operates the puissant religious organization or media market of the day tell us what to think.

I have to say that you give off more of a charade of puerility in your understandings and doctrinaire commandments than most of your fellow Christians. The non-progressive stance you take is not only frightening but disheartening. I don't see what is so hard about the concept of love whether it be for a neighbor, friend or foe. And if the God you proclaim to worship has such a saturnine disposition such as that there is anything more than "Love" attached to him; what is the purpose of worshiping or even acknowledging it other than to allow the fear-laden organism you are sucking the blood out of to spread its desultory mind virus any further?

Last edited by GCSTroop; 10-20-2009 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,116,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcstroop View Post
i find it interesting, fundamentalist, that your choice was made by how adamant people were that they insisted their truth was the correct truth. It seems to me that you laid a lot down on the line - a change in perception, a change in belief, a change in understanding, a change in mentality - all based on the stalwart defense mechanisms of those who refuse to change their minds in the first place.

Of course, there is another failure in judicious logic that i sense here. For someone who repeatedly blathers on with excessive foofaraw about how important it is that people quote chapter and verse what part of the bible they got something out of - it seems that by your own admission you'd prefer people to tell you precisely what to believe and as long as there is some sort of scriptural lamentation to support it and those who are telling you what to believe agree than, as far as your concerned, it must be "truth."

honestly, i can only imagine that to a person seeking or wanting to come to some sort of spiritual agreement, that you simply don't strike me as any sort of cognoscente of spiritual anything. Rather, you give the blatant appearance of someone who has not had a single iota of thought for oneself in what you believe with the exception of your initial flea-like jump from one organism to the next. After you made the jump, much like a flea, you simply latched on for the ride and suck the blood of whatever organism you've decided to eat for the day.

I think it necessary to understand that in order to truly talk to those you feel are "searching" that recommending some sort of person to shove information down their throat is probably not the best of recommendations. Most people of the world pride themselves on having some sort of original thought or visceral interpretation of the world around them while not having whomever operates the puissant religious organization or media market of the day tell us what to think.

I have to say that you give off more of a charade of puerility in your understandings and doctrinaire commandments than most of your fellow christians. The non-progressive stance you take is not only frightening but disheartening. I don't see what is so hard about the concept of love whether it be for a neighbor, friend or foe. And if the god you proclaim to worship has such a saturnine disposition such as that there is anything more than "love" attached to him; what is the purpose of worshiping or even acknowledging it other than to allow the fear-laden organism you are sucking the blood out of to spread its desultory mind virus any further?
priceless.....simply priceless!!:d
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:50 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,444,975 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Poor June is gonna have to spend hours just to catch up on all the posts here!

She is WAY behind schedule, so won't be able to 'catch up' till later on tonight.

Meanwhile...

Take gentle care.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,116,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Uh, Christy? June wouldn't even begin to have a clue as to how to do that! That's because...

She's a heathen!

"Thou shalt not confuse a smart atheist with a dumb one." Trust June: heathen. June would know.
Hmmm...the simple fact that your are reading and studying leads me to believe that God is already speaking to you and drawing you in. Even though you don't realize it now...which I honestly think you don't...I believe you will one day.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,108,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Jesus boiled down the entire law to this: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

Even following these laws are very hard for some Christians because they are STILL very carnal and into themselves and the world around them....that is why Christ told us to "DENY OURSELVES". Some think that salvation is just a song and a prayer...this is so far from the truth of what God calls us to do. We have to die daily to self...once we have crucified our old carnal man...we will see God clearly. The law and the prophets can be summed up into one thing....LOVE. LOVE covers it all and there is nothing else that you need to see the Light and Love of God. That is where the true freedom lies that Paul tried to impart to us.
Christy I agree that the law is summed up with love . . .but the commandments are all about love, not legalism . . as I had believed. Yes, we have to die daily to self, and continue to do that hour by hour, and yes, the more we die to self, the closer God reveals himself to us. I agree with all this . . . but if we look at the commandments . . . we agree that those in Christ should strive not to curse God/or be profane . . James talks about the tongue . . we shouldn't have idols, we shouldn't kill, envy, lust, covet .. . these our just guidelines . . . and when we are walking in God's love, these commandments are not burdensom.

The word Commandment is a turnoff for some, like me, as I am a bit rebellious and hate to be commanded to do do anything . . . but when I get the word commandment out of my head . . .and read what they are .. . they are all about love, love of God, and love of eachother.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,567,956 times
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Bump. Such a pertinent question June. Is it a sin to bump up a very old thread.
Apparently not much has changed in the time you've served here.
Funny thing
about the book of Romans - it used to terrify me with the whole pre-destination
issue. Now it is one of my favorite books of the bible and underscores Universal
Reconciliation for all through Christ in a major way. It is an amazing book. I love
the portion that declares that NOTHING SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM
THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST... NOTHING!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,627,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
For reasons she neither understands nor cares to figure out, June has found herself reading and re-reading the book of Romans, as of late. Therein, June has learned a few things, not the least of which how Paul talks about 'the Law.' It would appear to the little heathen (who barely remembers her days of actually studying theology) that there is a distinction made between the 'old Law' or covenant, and the new. If June is reading correctly, (which of course could admittedly be a real long shot) then what she seems to be gleaning is the very fact that with Christ's death and resurrection, the 'old ways' were eradicated. Adherence to the Law would thus appear to become redefined. Interesting. Paul even goes so far as to point out that it is not as 'black and white' as a 'do or do not' contract; but rather, is much more broadly defined against the backdrop of the resurrected Jesus Christ.

Paul also has a thing or two to say about how believers should interact with one another, along with how they should engage with nonbelievers. This particularly caught June's attention, as she found her 'just heathen June self' sitting there on more than one occasion saying to herself "Well I'll be!"

So here's June's question/questions:

What's the deal with legalism? (Fundamentalism, literalism?) June wonders where that comes from, or even how it is possible. What's the deal with the OT 'all or none/black and white' thinking that she reads on these forums so often that would tend to contradict most of what she reads in most of the NT, but lately, in Romans, in particular? June finds it somewhat compelling that she reads one thing here, another there. June finds it especially compelling that there is one attitude conveyed here, yet another there. June can certainly understand how an atheist could become confused. -If they were a dumb atheist. June hopes that she is not, but then again, does one ever really know? Paul advises against arrogance, so June's more inclined to side with that notion for the time being. --It would seem to make so much better sense, along with the fact that humility and humbleness are things June has always tended to value, endorse, and at least attempt to uphold. Arrogance always bothered June, as it so clearly spoke to such vast insecurity in those who so adamantly needed to be 'right.' June doesn't need to be right. For the time being, she would simply like to understand, and thus needs a bit of clarification.

So help June out here: How should June reconcile in her little heathen mind what she reads here, versus what she reads in the book that so many of you are so fond of quoting? How should June reconcile in her little heathen mind what accounts for such vast interpretations of what is so clearly stated as regards the 'law' and how it should be executed (lived out) among believers? How should June reconcile the underlying attitude that Paul conveys by his insight, acceptance, and understanding of human nature in the aftermath of his own conversion, versus what June reads on the Christianity forum that would appear to speak to less than a lovingly accepting attitude towards others? (Fellow believers, or otherwise.) Who should June listen to and why all the discrepancies? Lastly, what accounts for the fact that -more often than not- June can't help but wonder: Are we all reading the same bible?

Disclaimer: June is asking all of the above questions out of a sincere interest in order to better understand, and to possibly gain some insight as to what and why others believe as they do. June is fully aware of the fact that she is reading Romans as a nonbeliever. -But a nonbeliever who is not totally ignorant and clueless. And hopefully neither arrogant, or unkind.

Thanks in advance to those who respond!


Take gentle care.
June, I posted this in another thread but it answers to some of your questions:

Now, let me teach you of the LAW. After all, those being chosen now are called to be Judges. So we had better learn justice.

I'm going to use an analogy of the Speed Limit.

People were getting injured on the roads or worse yet - killed, so there was a need to "Prevent injury and death on the highways", so what was enacted was the LETTER which said "Do not drive faster than established speed limits".

Now consider this for a second. I just gave you TWO things. I gave you the LETTER and the SPIRIT. The Letter is to tell us about the SPIRIT. Let's take a look:

Spirit -> Prevent death and injury on the highways
Letter-> Obey established speed limits.

So now consider your driving in your car and a tire comes off a Truck up ahead of you in an adjacent lane. You know that if you continue at the speed your at that you will strike the rolling tire. But if you stop or slow suddenly then the car behind you shall hit you. You realize the gap in between your car and the one behind you may be enough to let the rolling tire miss both of you so you speed up and BREAK the posted speed limit.

WHAT JUST HAPPENED?

You sped up and broke the LETTER because you went over the speed limit. HOWEVER!!! What else did you do? - You UPHELD the SPIRIT which established the LETTER which was to reduce injury and death on the highway.

Had you followed the letter you would have done something unjust and caused injury or death.

See Jesus broke the LETTER of the LAW but did so while ADHEREING to the Spirit that established the LETTER.

If you don't understand what I just wrote - please re-read it until you do. It will help you tremendously in understanding JUSTICE according to God's Will and reveal so much about the LAW of God (which Paul explained was ordained unto Life).
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:52 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,444,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Bump. Such a pertinent question June. Is it a sin to bump up a very old thread.
Nope, it's not a sin.

(If June 'bumped' her own thread, now THAT would be a "sin" even for the likes of heathen June!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
Apparently not much has changed in the time you've served here.
Sorry...

~But then, June's not altogether sure what "should have changed" in her time here...


Take gentle care.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:56 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,414,155 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Nope, it's not a sin.

(If June 'bumped' her own thread, now THAT would be a "sin" even for the likes of heathen June!)



Sorry...

~But then, June's not altogether sure what "should have changed" in her time here...


Take gentle care.
Being Just June...
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