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Old 10-20-2009, 10:18 AM
 
159 posts, read 194,855 times
Reputation: 28

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Works are fine when you believe in Christ you must do good works in obedience but not as a means to boast you did more than your neighbor.

In other words it's ok to do good deeds/works but ephesians is clear that works will not gain you access into heaven. It's your faith in Christ alone by his free gift of grace you are saved.

The church confused many by saying good works and faith are necessary for salvation and some have sacraments too boot.

Christ said it is good to do good works but it is by faith through grace that you are saved not because you deserve it.

They also says faith without works is dead meaning you can't call yourself a born again christian and refuse to live in obedience to God. Don't be a hypocrite but live as a true testimony of you being born again and do God's work according to His plan for your life. Hope that clears the air a bit.
I agree and think this is well put. The emphasis in Eph 2:8 that you are referring to is that we are saved by faith through grace. It does not say "alone" I think you added that. Verse 10 says we are his workmanship created unto good works and we should do them as you said. Plus our faith is in vain without them (James 2). All the glory and power is God's and not of ourselves at all. We do need to remember though that on the day of judgment we will be judged according to our works (2 Cor. 5:10, Eph. 6:8, Rom. 2:6 and best of all Rev. 20:12-13 and Matt 16:26-27). I think we forget these verses sometimes and take Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5 too far and say faith "alone". We are not saved by works but we must show our faith by them (James 2:14-26, Matt 7:21-24, Luke 6:46-49).
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:21 AM
 
218 posts, read 269,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
I agree and think this is well put. The emphasis in Eph 2:8 that you are referring to is that we are saved by faith through grace. It does not say "alone" I think you added that. Verse 10 says we are his workmanship created unto good works and we should do them as you said. Plus our faith is in vain without them (James 2). All the glory and power is God's and not of ourselves at all. We do need to remember though that on the day of judgment we will be judged according to our works (2 Cor. 5:10, Eph. 6:8, Rom. 2:6 and best of all Rev. 20:12-13 and Matt 16:26-27). I think we forget these verses sometimes and take Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5 too far and say faith "alone". We are not saved by works but we must show our faith by them (James 2:14-26, Matt 7:21-24, Luke 6:46-49).
My mistake for adding the word alone thanks for spotting that error. I do agree with all you said makes total sense. Thank you!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:30 AM
 
159 posts, read 194,855 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
My mistake for adding the word alone thanks for spotting that error. I do agree with all you said makes total sense. Thank you!
No problem and like I said you hit the nail on the head.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
I agree and think this is well put. The emphasis in Eph 2:8 that you are referring to is that we are saved by faith through grace. It does not say "alone" I think you added that. Verse 10 says we are his workmanship created unto good works and we should do them as you said. Plus our faith is in vain without them (James 2). All the glory and power is God's and not of ourselves at all. We do need to remember though that on the day of judgment we will be judged according to our works (2 Cor. 5:10, Eph. 6:8, Rom. 2:6 and best of all Rev. 20:12-13 and Matt 16:26-27). I think we forget these verses sometimes and take Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5 too far and say faith "alone". We are not saved by works but we must show our faith by them (James 2:14-26, Matt 7:21-24, Luke 6:46-49).
I don't think it is OUR faith that aids in anything. We are those Jesus said were "of little faith" but JESUS had enough faith for all of us and showed it by his death on our behalf.

Psalm 66:5 Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:56 AM
 
159 posts, read 194,855 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't think it is OUR faith that aids in anything. We are those Jesus said were "of little faith" but JESUS had enough faith for all of us and showed it by his death on our behalf.

Psalm 66:5 Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf!
Hebrews 11:6 -"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him".

That says otherwise.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:44 AM
 
218 posts, read 269,155 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Hebrews 11:6 -"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him".

That says otherwise.
I agree Dalton. Hebrews is clear that faith is relevant.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:01 PM
 
20,307 posts, read 15,665,676 times
Reputation: 7433
Works are always the result of spiritual growth. Works are never the means of producing spiritual growth.

Believe in Christ--then-- ''grow by means of grace in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ(2 Pet. 3:18)--the result--spiritual production-works.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Hebrews 11:6 -"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him".

That says otherwise.
Like I said... our faith is small. Christ's faith was huge! I trust Jesus' testimony about the father but my faith is still very small compared to Jesus'.

The way I see it (just me not speaking for others) Jesus had the faith that guided him to the cross on our behalf.

My faith guides me to the realization that I need to borrow Jesus' faith as my own is insufficient.

IMHO
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
Good Morning Shizzles.

This is such an important subject to be discussed...and even more importantly, to be understood.

Some come against me claiming I am a liar, full of hate, blasphemous...a hypocrite, and decieved...and in my heart, I hear them scream, "Crucify her!..because I express my faith as one that adheres literally to the written Word of God, the Bible. Scripture is divinely inspired by God...and the words literally live and breath life into the anointed reader who seeks, (with a pure heart), truth from the heart of God.

If one does not respect and hold in the highest of esteem, the written word of God, they will not agree with the commands of God. If Scripture is believed, trusted and respected as the very Word of God, by the reader, then they will live by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God...every Word.

Rom.1:
16)For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation, to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17)For therein is the rightousness of God received from faith to faith: as it is written, * The just shall live by faith.
18)For the wrath of God is reveiled from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

* Behold, his soul which is lifted up, is not upright in him; but the just shall live by faith.

The slanderous, hateful accusations...? Personally, even though I cannot stop the small amount of hurt it insues to be so attacked...I run into the arms of my Father, and He comforts me. Abiding in Him and His Word helps me to understand why I am met with such anger and hostility. And the anger and hostility is compounded when just keeping the commandments of God are so much as mentioned. Are we not told to do this if we love God? This is my understanding in 1 John:

2)By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3)For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grevious.
4)For whatsoever is born of God, overcometh the world, and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

...and I believe it, with all of my heart.

What am I suppossed to think as I am attacked for speaking what the Word of God, in context, says...and I back up what He says with Scriptures, in context? And His Word, in context, is just ignored...and rebuked as fear mongering and hate.

I cannot just sit back here in my seat, and read posts on this forum that contradict God's Word...claiming that one can live this life in unbelief and in sin, and be saved anyway...claiming that works have nothing to do with faith...claiming that punishment...burning...separation by death from God is only for a while...that it is not endless, <<(oh, well, as long as it is not endless, then, that's o.k...NOT!)...that is a lie from the pit of hell. I can't, and I won't be silent...my silence would be considered murder in the ears of God, and I will not be judged for that. I'll absorb all the hate and scorn anyone wants to dish out...bring it on...but not without God's strength behind me, and His Spirit in me and upon me guiding me and protecting my heart all the way.

Faith without works is dead faith. Dead faith is merely words spoken, without the manifestation of it in our actions and words. Faith that lives is expressed through our thoughts and our actions. How the world sees us from the outside, in our actions and speech is crucial...because the world only sees the outer shell of someone, they don't see the heart of the person. However, God knows our heart and in what state it is...He sees from our actions and our speech where our heart is, and what is in it..."As a man thinketh, so is he..." He knows if we have faith in Him or not, and He knows if we believe in Him or not. How else do we show the world who God is? How else do we show the world who Jesus is? We show the world who They (God and Jesus) are inside of us, or not, by the things we do or don't do in our lives...this is the love we have for the children of God, and this is the love we have for God..."...that we keep His commandments."

...and I do.

The law convinces me of my sin...I'm a sinner that is saved by grace through faith in the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ. It is not the hearers of the word that are justified, but the doers of the word that are justified...correct? Well, it is consistent with God's Word anyway...an honest report.

...and I stand upon it.

Rom. 3:
3)For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4)God forbid: Yea, let God be true, and every man a liar, as it is written,

No flesh is justified by the Law, but all, without difference, by faith only: And yet the Law is not abolished.

Rom.3:
20)Therefore by the deeds of the Law, there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.
21)But now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.
22)Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all, and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23)For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
24)Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ:
25)Whom God hath [foreordained] set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the [passing over] remission of sins, that are past, through the forebearance of God.
26)To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27)Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? Of works? Nay: but by the Law of faith.
28)Therefore we conclude, that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.
29)Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30)Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31)Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law.

I concur with Scripture...

Faith without works is dead...and works without faith is dead. One cannot stand and be justified nor accepted as righteous through God without the other.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:20 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,855 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Good Morning Shizzles.

This is such an important subject to be discussed...and even more importantly, to be understood.

Some come against me claiming I am a liar, full of hate, blasphemous...a hypocrite, and decieved...and in my heart, I hear them scream, "Crucify her!..because I express my faith as one that adheres literally to the written Word of God, the Bible. Scripture is divinely inspired by God...and the words literally live and breath life into the anointed reader who seeks, (with a pure heart), truth from the heart of God.

If one does not respect and hold in the highest of esteem, the written word of God, they will not agree with the commands of God. If Scripture is believed, trusted and respected as the very Word of God, by the reader, then they will live by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God...every Word.

Rom.1:
16)For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation, to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17)For therein is the rightousness of God received from faith to faith: as it is written, * The just shall live by faith.
18)For the wrath of God is reveiled from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

* Behold, his soul which is lifted up, is not upright in him; but the just shall live by faith.

The slanderous, hateful accusations...? Personally, even though I cannot stop the small amount of hurt it insues to be so attacked...I run into the arms of my Father, and He comforts me. Abiding in Him and His Word helps me to understand why I am met with such anger and hostility. And the anger and hostility is compounded when just keeping the commandments of God are so much as mentioned. Are we not told to do this if we love God? This is my understanding in 1 John:

2)By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3)For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grevious.
4)For whatsoever is born of God, overcometh the world, and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

...and I believe it, with all of my heart.

What am I suppossed to think as I am attacked for speaking what the Word of God, in context, says...and I back up what He says with Scriptures, in context? And His Word, in context, is just ignored...and rebuked as fear mongering and hate.

I cannot just sit back here in my seat, and read posts on this forum that contradict God's Word...claiming that one can live this life in unbelief and in sin, and be saved anyway...claiming that works have nothing to do with faith...claiming that punishment...burning...separation by death from God is only for a while...that it is not endless, <<(oh, well, as long as it is not endless, then, that's o.k...NOT!)...that is a lie from the pit of hell. I can't, and I won't be silent...my silence would be considered murder in the ears of God, and I will not be judged for that. I'll absorb all the hate and scorn anyone wants to dish out...bring it on...but not without God's strength behind me, and His Spirit in me and upon me guiding me and protecting my heart all the way.

Faith without works is dead faith. Dead faith is merely words spoken, without the manifestation of it in our actions and words. Faith that lives is expressed through our thoughts and our actions. How the world sees us from the outside, in our actions and speech is crucial...because the world only sees the outer shell of someone, they don't see the heart of the person. However, God knows our heart and in what state it is...He sees from our actions and our speech where our heart is, and what is in it..."As a man thinketh, so is he..." He knows if we have faith in Him or not, and He knows if we believe in Him or not. How else do we show the world who God is? How else do we show the world who Jesus is? We show the world who They (God and Jesus) are inside of us, or not, by the things we do or don't do in our lives...this is the love we have for the children of God, and this is the love we have for God..."...that we keep His commandments."

...and I do.

The law convinces me of my sin...I'm a sinner that is saved by grace through faith in the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ. It is not the hearers of the word that are justified, but the doers of the word that are justified...correct? Well, it is consistent with God's Word anyway...an honest report.

...and I stand upon it.

Rom. 3:
3)For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4)God forbid: Yea, let God be true, and every man a liar, as it is written,

No flesh is justified by the Law, but all, without difference, by faith only: And yet the Law is not abolished.

Rom.3:
20)Therefore by the deeds of the Law, there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.
21)But now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.
22)Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all, and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23)For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
24)Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ:
25)Whom God hath [foreordained] set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the [passing over] remission of sins, that are past, through the forebearance of God.
26)To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27)Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? Of works? Nay: but by the Law of faith.
28)Therefore we conclude, that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.
29)Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30)Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31)Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law.

I concur with Scripture...

Faith without works is dead...and works without faith is dead. One cannot stand and be justified nor accepted as righteous through God without the other.
We must prove all things with scripture as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 and as we are commanded to do in 1 Thessalonians 5:21. You did just that and I commend you for it. The bible never says faith alone, as a matter of fact as you pointed out it says faith alone is dead.
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