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Old 11-30-2009, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,096 times
Reputation: 149

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
I wanted to get this question off my chest becuase it has been something that has bugged me on a theological level for a long time:

Okay, I have tried several different demonionations throughout my ongoing journey as a Christian, and one thing that has often left a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to evangelicalism is the idea that works are spiritually useless.

Now, I want to preface this statement by saying that I agree with the concept that the one and only path to salvation is through the full faith and belief in Jesus, and no man, regardless of his earthly deeds, is worthy enough to enter the kingdom of God w/o his grace. However, I take excpetion to the recent concept that one's faith in Jesus reneders the basic moral and scriptual tenets of the Bible invalid.

An example of the type of thinking I see is many christians who go about their lives hating others, displaying gluttony, being attatched to material rather than spiritual rewards, and shunning rather than converting non-belivers. I don't feel comfortable in alot of Neo-Conservative churches that say it's perfectly okay to spend your earthly life lusting after the material and the flesh and that as long as you "Love Jesus" and "Hate Homos" you're golden. All the previous scriptures about giving up one's own deisres and motives to follow god's word is completely scrubbed from the sermon. Same thing w/ Liberal churchs which say such abominations like Abortion or Divorce is simply "Keeping w/ the times". I remember vividly being in a parish in PA where a sole Black family had come to worship and when it was time to give one another peace, a few parishoners refused to shake their hands. This is an image that has been seared into my brain as being emblematic of where christianty is heading in this country. If I recall, I do believe Jesus himself said he is not and abolishment of God's previous word/works (Old Testament), but it's fullfillment.

Where do you stand on this issue?
James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. This is why Jesus is coming back.
1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
Romans 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 1:3
We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
Titus 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
Titus3: 3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.


Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast
Hebrews 6:11
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 John 3:3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
We have not attained our salvation yet, we have faith in God's promise, through Jesus.
This is why Jesus said-Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Anyone can use the name of Jesus to heal, cast out demons,etc. But are we loving God first and then our neighbor? For these are the two greatest commandements. If your doing these, the other eight commandments are automatically intertwined. And of course this is why we have the Promised Holy Spirit. To give us grace in our time of need and help us Love God and our neighbor. Again, God has poured out His love in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Great Post!
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,096 times
Reputation: 149
Great post!
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,096 times
Reputation: 149
He sure was! NT hadn't been written yet.
Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of heaven. Get away from me you evildoers, I never knew you. Anyone want to fight with Jesus on this scripture? The Lord said it himself.
This one piece of scripture tells anyone and everyone, not everyone who just says they believe is saved. And they even used his name. It's all good, even the demons believe and shudder.
Ezekiel prophesised this. That if the evil man turned from his evil ways, he will be saved. But if the righteous man turned and did the things the evil man did, he will not be saved and all his good works, the righteous man did, are worthless. They will not be remembered. And if you know about it and say nothing, you are held accountable.
If you don't believe the Prophets, how will you believe if someone rises from the dead. Hang on to what the Prophets said, this was for us, to help us.
Each piece of scripture is for me personally. Because 10 out of 10, I will go through the same or similar experiences with God, just like the Prophets and Jesus. This is my personal relationship of getting to know God more than I did yesterday and most of all-He is glorified through every experience.
Luke 24:25 Jesus
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
John 8:52
At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
John 8: 49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." Jesus

Good Post HK!
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
Where do you stand on this issue?
Almost exactly where you do.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Not "without faith and works it is impossible to please God"
By our works is our faith made perfect.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
 
435 posts, read 1,048,273 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
I wanted to get this question off my chest becuase it has been something that has bugged me on a theological level for a long time:

Okay, I have tried several different demonionations throughout my ongoing journey as a Christian, and one thing that has often left a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to evangelicalism is the idea that works are spiritually useless.

Now, I want to preface this statement by saying that I agree with the concept that the one and only path to salvation is through the full faith and belief in Jesus, and no man, regardless of his earthly deeds, is worthy enough to enter the kingdom of God w/o his grace. However, I take excpetion to the recent concept that one's faith in Jesus reneders the basic moral and scriptual tenets of the Bible invalid.

An example of the type of thinking I see is many christians who go about their lives hating others, displaying gluttony, being attatched to material rather than spiritual rewards, and shunning rather than converting non-belivers. I don't feel comfortable in alot of Neo-Conservative churches that say it's perfectly okay to spend your earthly life lusting after the material and the flesh and that as long as you "Love Jesus" and "Hate Homos" you're golden. All the previous scriptures about giving up one's own deisres and motives to follow god's word is completely scrubbed from the sermon. Same thing w/ Liberal churchs which say such abominations like Abortion or Divorce is simply "Keeping w/ the times". I remember vividly being in a parish in PA where a sole Black family had come to worship and when it was time to give one another peace, a few parishoners refused to shake their hands. This is an image that has been seared into my brain as being emblematic of where christianty is heading in this country. If I recall, I do believe Jesus himself said he is not and abolishment of God's previous word/works (Old Testament), but it's fullfillment.

Where do you stand on this issue?
dude i like your name hey. Just had to say that first, lol. Back to topic. I hear you, I hear you. This is unfortunately the nature of men, and this is what you see in all religions. Saying one thing but doing the other. HAVING THE FORM AND CLAIMING TO HAVE THE FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT DENYING IT'S POWER. And power in this context I see as the genuine impact of a life of a true christianity. Yes there is a balance, although that is not the right word, to be maintained. Infact I would call it maintaining right priorities in Him. Now a nice verse that touches on this is hebrew 6 verse 1 to 6, and in a way the speaker here poses a question that is it possible to build a solid house or move on when I still have not worked through the fundamentals. And really this the problem or you may even call it the answer to this question that you are seeing when christians who claim to Love God and believe Him act in ways that are contrary to His Word. These are basics. Faith and Love are abstract, works serve to support what we can not see. Hence faith without works is dead. Works reflect the change inside. Now Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, and in my mind if the fruits are bad or not inline with his word then I would say true change has not happened inside. And there we ve just answered hebrew 6 verse 1 to 6. If true conversion has not occured inside, it does not matter how much you act like a christian at the end your true nature will reveal it's self: the fruits. At the same time if true conversion has occured then you are guaranteed a change in action, unless one falls away. Now these are the basics, easy and simple. At the same time it is only fair to guage our expectations on other fellow christians. We are after all work in progress. Personally I tend to be critical of those in leadership positions as they are accountable for many and are leading many. I dont expect perfection, but I do believe in Love which produces love for others. The basics. Advise: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Rely on scriptures. Be it liberal or orthodox, we are all work in progress.
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