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I wanted to get this question off my chest becuase it has been something that has bugged me on a theological level for a long time:
Okay, I have tried several different demonionations throughout my ongoing journey as a Christian, and one thing that has often left a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to evangelicalism is the idea that works are spiritually useless.
Now, I want to preface this statement by saying that I agree with the concept that the one and only path to salvation is through the full faith and belief in Jesus, and no man, regardless of his earthly deeds, is worthy enough to enter the kingdom of God w/o his grace. However, I take excpetion to the recent concept that one's faith in Jesus reneders the basic moral and scriptual tenets of the Bible invalid.
An example of the type of thinking I see is many christians who go about their lives hating others, displaying gluttony, being attatched to material rather than spiritual rewards, and shunning rather than converting non-belivers. I don't feel comfortable in alot of Neo-Conservative churches that say it's perfectly okay to spend your earthly life lusting after the material and the flesh and that as long as you "Love Jesus" and "Hate Homos" you're golden. All the previous scriptures about giving up one's own deisres and motives to follow god's word is completely scrubbed from the sermon. Same thing w/ Liberal churchs which say such abominations like Abortion or Divorce is simply "Keeping w/ the times". I remember vividly being in a parish in PA where a sole Black family had come to worship and when it was time to give one another peace, a few parishoners refused to shake their hands. This is an image that has been seared into my brain as being emblematic of where christianty is heading in this country. If I recall, I do believe Jesus himself said he is not and abolishment of God's previous word/works (Old Testament), but it's fullfillment.
I wanted to get this question off my chest becuase it has been something that has bugged me on a theological level for a long time:
Okay, I have tried several different demonionations throughout my ongoing journey as a Christian, and one thing that has often left a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to evangelicalism is the idea that works are spiritually useless.
Now, I want to preface this statement by saying that I agree with the concept that the one and only path to salvation is through the full faith and belief in Jesus, and no man, regardless of his earthly deeds, is worthy enough to enter the kingdom of God w/o his grace. However, I take excpetion to the recent concept that one's faith in Jesus reneders the basic moral and scriptual tenets of the Bible invalid.
An example of the type of thinking I see is many christians who go about their lives hating others, displaying gluttony, being attatched to material rather than spiritual rewards, and shunning rather than converting non-belivers. I don't feel comfortable in alot of Neo-Conservative churches that say it's perfectly okay to spend your earthly life lusting after the material and the flesh and that as long as you "Love Jesus" and "Hate Homos" you're golden. All the previous scriptures about giving up one's own deisres and motives to follow god's word is completely scrubbed from the sermon. Same thing w/ Liberal churchs which say such abominations like Abortion or Divorce is simply "Keeping w/ the times". I remember vividly being in a parish in PA where a sole Black family had come to worship and when it was time to give one another peace, a few parishoners refused to shake their hands. This is an image that has been seared into my brain as being emblematic of where christianty is heading in this country. If I recall, I do believe Jesus himself said he is not and abolishment of God's previous word/works (Old Testament), but it's fullfillment.
Where do you stand on this issue?
Jesus came to show us "The Way" into the Kingdom of God. Saying a "I accept Jesus as my Savior" prayer is not going to get you into the Kingdom...the Word is very clear about that, contrary to what they teach in institutionalized church. You have to deny yourself daily and follow in the footsteps of Jesus...walking in pure and umblemished LOVE. You have to completely crucify your "old carnal man"...this is a long and sometimes painful process which, in most cases, takes your entire lifetime but it is attainable and is what we should be striving for. Jesus showed us it was possible to be One with The Father. But it requires us to get our attention off of ourselves and the world and onto God and only God. We are supposed to be in the world but not of the world...as long as we are concerned with wordly things, materialism, gluttony, life's pleasures, differeing doctrine, etc...people will remain right where they are and will not be given the higher spiritual truths that are available to us from God. Even Paul berated the Corinthians for this very thing...they had all spiritual gifts and knowledge but they still could only be fed the "milk" of the gospel because they didn't mature past it to receive the higher mysteries of God. What you read in the bible and what most of "churchianity" teaches is the simple faith or the "milk" of the gospel message...they haven't moved past it yet into the higher spiritual truths or the "solid food" of Gods word...that would require that they change their entire lives and they are not willing to do that. Like Jesus said himself, the cost of following Him is very high and He was dead spot on about that.
Jesus came to show us "The Way" into the Kingdom of God. Saying a "I accept Jesus as my Savior" prayer is not going to get you into the Kingdom...the Word is very clear about that, contrary to what they teach in institutionalized church. You have to deny yourself daily and follow in the footsteps of Jesus...walking in pure and umblemished LOVE. You have to completely crucify your "old carnal man"...this is a long and sometimes painful process which, in most cases, takes your entire lifetime but it is attainable and is what we should be striving for. Jesus showed us it was possible to be One with The Father. But it requires us to get our attention off of ourselves and the world and onto God and only God. We are supposed to be in the world but not of the world...as long as we are concerned with wordly things, materialism, gluttony, life's pleasures, differeing doctrine, etc...people will remain right where they are and will not be given the higher spiritual truths that are available to us from God. Even Paul berated the Corinthians for this very thing...they had all spiritual gifts and knowledge but they still could only be fed the "milk" of the gospel because they didn't mature past it to receive the higher mysteries of God. What you read in the bible and what most of "churchianity" teaches is the simple faith or the "milk" of the gospel message...they haven't moved past it yet into the higher spiritual truths or the "solid food" of Gods word...that would require that they change their entire lives and they are not willing to do that. Like Jesus said himself, the cost of following Him is very high and He was dead spot on about that.
I can't rep you, so we both have an opportunity to reckon ourselves dead - me, to failure - and you, to pride.
To address the OP, faith is the tree and works are the fruit; just as the tree doesn't struggle and toil, neither should we concern ourselves with the byproduct of our spiritual life - just as CG said, we are to totally cease from "self" awareness and all the vises that go along with it (pride, shame, etc.). If He is the vine and we are the branches, the life of the vine will simply flow through us.
He told His disciples, "You are the salt of the earth". The next time you see a salt shaker, command that salt to "be salt!" and see how silly you look. The salt only has to be what it already is, no striving necessary. We are to learn that there are two natures within us, and simply live by His life. The fruit will come naturally, or should I say - spiritually.
I can't rep you, so we both have an opportunity to reckon ourselves dead - me, to failure - and you, to pride.
To address the OP, faith is the tree and works are the fruit; just as the tree doesn't struggle and toil, neither should we concern ourselves with the byproduct of our spiritual life - just as CG said, we are to totally cease from "self" awareness and all the vises that go along with it (pride, shame, etc.). If He is the vine and we are the branches, the life of the vine will simply flow through us.
He told His disciples, "You are the salt of the earth". The next time you see a salt shaker, command that salt to "be salt!" and see how silly you look. The salt only has to be what it already is, no striving necessary. We are to learn that there are two natures within us, and simply live by His life. The fruit will come naturally, or should I say - spiritually.
Once we kill the "What about Me" syndrome....life is so much sweeter!
However, I take excpetion to the recent concept that one's faith in Jesus reneders the basic moral and scriptual tenets of the Bible invalid.
Before I can comment on this, I need you to talk a bit more about what this sentence means?
Im not sure I get the point you are aiming at?
Let me tell you what i do understand , and then that should help you better talk to me about your over-all point here.
" faith in Jesus renders the basic moral and scriptural tenets of the Bible invalid. "
so there is faith...renders....tenets...invalid
So you believe that some Christian teachings are that Faith (in Jesus) renders (causes a change) the tenets (the way we are to live our lives) to become invalid, (no longer in effect)
so build on what I understand above and tell me more about your thoughts on this topic.....
When we do things out of love for God for our family and the rest of humanity whether they are brothers/sisters in Christ or not I do not consider this work..It is an act of love and genuine concern for all of Gods creation..
Once a person feels that he HAS to do this, that and the other in order to please God then it becomes work and , imo, is useless towards your salvation..It may look good to the particular group of people that you worship with and may boost your ego with all of their hugs, handshakes and slaps on the back for your dedication to the "Lords work"..That is your reward..enjoy it, because it is only good for this lifetime
So you believe that some Christian teachings are that Faith (in Jesus) renders (causes a change) the tenets (the way we are to live our lives) to become invalid, (no longer in effect)
so build on what I understand above and tell me more about your thoughts on this topic.....
Going off of the framework you've given, my basic message is that modern christianity has developed a message that says "All one has to do is "Believe" and all is swell". It seems to be based off the evangelical concept that Christ represents a wiping away of all the old mores, to be replaced by a simple acknowledgement of his saving grace.
This opinion is not to deny his forgiveness and gift of salvation though the cross, but simply a statement of dissatisfaction of the mindset too many christians have of thinking they are "Off the Hook" w/ regards to their moral behavior within the humanly world. I do my best (and I struggle) with the concept of living a life based on the gospel and teachings. I believe that god's greatest gift besides his grace is the moral and spirital consciousness and peace that occurs when one forgoes the flesh in favor of the spiritual.
When we do things out of love for God for our family and the rest of humanity whether they are brothers/sisters in Christ or not I do not consider this work..It is an act of love and genuine concern for all of Gods creation..
Once a person feels that he HAS to do this, that and the other in order to please God then it becomes work and , imo, is useless towards your salvation..It may look good to the particular group of people that you worship with and may boost your ego with all of their hugs, handshakes and slaps on the back for your dedication to the "Lords work"..That is your reward..enjoy it, because it is only good for this lifetime
JMHO
So would you agree that works are good as long as they are done humbly and we give God all the glory? And if "doing" is not considered work then what is? I am asking earnestly because I am not sure I understand exactly what your getting at
Works are fine when you believe in Christ you must do good works in obedience but not as a means to boast you did more than your neighbor.
In other words it's ok to do good deeds/works but ephesians is clear that works will not gain you access into heaven. It's your faith in Christ alone by his free gift of grace you are saved.
The church confused many by saying good works and faith are necessary for salvation and some have sacraments too boot.
Christ said it is good to do good works but it is by faith through grace that you are saved not because you deserve it.
They also says faith without works is dead meaning you can't call yourself a born again christian and refuse to live in obedience to God. Don't be a hypocrite but live as a true testimony of you being born again and do God's work according to His plan for your life. Hope that clears the air a bit.
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