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Old 10-20-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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I have read a bit about preterism, some things make sense, but other things do not, so I have some basic questions coming from a sincere heart that just wants to understand a bit more.

How can literally all prophecy be already fulfilled? Specifically:

1. 1 Cor 15:22 says all are made alive in Christ. When did this happen? How could "all" be made alive, when "all" have not existed yet?

2. When was death defeated? Obviously people still die, so I don't see how this has been fulfilled.

3. 1 Cor 15:22-28 says all enemies are defeated by Christ. When did this happen? Again, there are still many enemies in the world: wars, disease, death, etc.

4. When is the lake of fire? When was the GWT judgement fulfilled?

And perhaps my biggest question:
5. What happens now? Does the earth continue on forever, continuously producing people, some going to heaven when they die, others not, (or in the case of UR, all going to heaven?) Does this current earth ever "end"? Do we ever reach an "end state" where God is simply just "all in all" and all are finally reconciled to Him?


Inquiring minds want to know what you think.

Thanks.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I have read a bit about preterism, some things make sense, but other things do not, so I have some basic questions coming from a sincere heart that just wants to understand a bit more.

How can literally all prophecy be already fulfilled? Specifically:

Inquiring minds want to know what you think.

Thanks.
I, personally, knew nothing about preterism when I was reading the bible one day and looked up a question online. The question prompted google to list Josephus as an answer.. I don't even remember the question I had.

I read Josephus and it immediately struck me the correlations to his Jewish view of the war and the pictures in Revelation. I then studied the bible intensely for 2 years. I tore apart every passage I could think of and compared it to the original language and commentaries. The thing that struck me is that salvation was started by the death of Christ on the Cross and finished at his second coming. This made me wonder how salvation could be if he had not already returned.

The point being that I may not line up with all preterist teachings as I still don't know exactly what preterism teaches. I do know that there are different kinds of preterism. Full, partial..etc.

That said....

Quote:
1. 1 Cor 15:22 says all are made alive in Christ. When did this happen? How could "all" be made alive, when "all" have not existed yet?
I would answer that all were not alive when Christ lived yet it is clear in the bible that this was the plan already. Meaning that those who died before Christ's time were included. So if God knew me before I was even a thought in my parent's mind, then surely he accounted for my being made alive even though I had not been formed yet. It is the same way salvation applies to you even though you were not born in the 1st century.

Quote:
2. When was death defeated? Obviously people still die, so I don't see how this has been fulfilled.
In my mind it is death from sin that was defeated not neccessarily death from life. We can be sure of two things in life... death and taxes.. those things will never cease. A drug addict is truly dead to life. Have you watched intervention? The addict looks different before the intervention and after they look alive! The bible says that it is the conscience that is affected by our sin. Take a look at 1 Cor. 8:4-
1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

compare that to 1 Cor. 10:29

There are idols but in reality they have no power because God is the only God. It is our conscience that is guilty and the old covenant was not able to free the conscience of guilt but the new and greater covenant is. Therefore if you can think of sin as being overcome yet still rampant, then death is overcome yet people still must die. Resurrection itself requires death first.

Quote:
3. 1 Cor 15:22-28 says all enemies are defeated by Christ. When did this happen? Again, there are still many enemies in the world: wars, disease, death, etc.
I don't have a concrete answer other than my own thoughts. It is the global view on earth that you take and the local view that I take. Christ was present in the 1st century and told the pharisees that they were the object of judgment.

Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

With the temple still standing there was no change. Change was brought about when the temple fell in 70AD.

Rev. 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

There is no temple in Rev. because it was destroyed to make way for the temple of God that is within us. This points to it being a spiritual change that stems from a physical one.

Quote:
4. When is the lake of fire? When was the GWT judgement fulfilled?
I believe that the lake of fire is purification that happens on earth. God rained fire from heaven in purification. Seems to me that that is the lake of fire.. I do have my doubts about this being the whole meaning of the lake of fire because in Rev. 20 we see that only certain non-human beings are thrown into the lake of fire except those not written in the book of life. I believe that everyone that has ever lived or will live is written in the book of life. After all, it is the book of LIFE. So that would mean that only those not found in the book are thrown in the lake of fire.
So really.. all I know for sure is that the lake of fire is for correction and it is not the "Dante's Inferno" we all seem to picture.

Quote:
And perhaps my biggest question:
5. What happens now? Does the earth continue on forever, continuously producing people, some going to heaven when they die, others not, (or in the case of UR, all going to heaven?) Does this current earth ever "end"? Do we ever reach an "end state" where God is simply just "all in all" and all are finally reconciled to Him?
I believe that God is all in all right now, and that he may have given authority to Christ for a time but God has always been all in all.

Now I probably gave you nothing at all that could be "proof" of preterism but like I said before, I have no idea what preterism actually teaches other than what I have gained myself. I am still learning. I do know that when I read the bible I see correlations between Rev. and Paul's journey as Saul.

For example, Saul killed and persecuted Christians relentlessly. He was the definition of anti-christ before his conversion. Then he was condemned and converted as if by fire. So I picture, in my own mind, that it is Saul who was tried by fire, or dipped in the lake of fire, until he was purified and became Paul.

I probably botched that terribly but I did give it a shot! I just hope that someone else that is more knowledgable will give more concrete insights..It seems as if I am spiritualizing a lot of this but in reality I think that Christ taught that it is all about the conscience.

ETers can't understand how someone can be "good" and believe in UR but we know how it is about the conscience. If I know that Jesus died to save me then I am more apt to honor that by doing what is right. In the same token, the end of times is spiritual. Death is defeated because I don't have to die of sin. Not because sin is gone but because I am under grace not the law. Also, I would have a better supply of verses but my internet is being sketchy (and I am lazy).. it is frustrating!

Do I get an "A" for effort?
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:51 PM
 
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Thankyou Kat, yes "A" for effort!

I'm not really looking for a big debate on this, more just trying to find out what preterists believe and how certain bible passages fit in. I'm sure I will study it more in the future.

I'm not totally futurist, nor totally preterist (obviously), but I view scripture as having application in past, present, and future. The "Is, was, and will be" view.

For example I don't see death as defeated yet, since obviously people still die (both physically and spiritually). But from the perspective of God, death is already defeated, because Christ rose from the dead and God knows his plan will be achieved. He is outside time so its already done. But for us, we will die, and then we will be resurrected, so for us that is still future.

Regarding the antichrist/endtimes stuff, I think the futurist/rapture view is way wrong. There have been many antichrists. Like you said, Saul was an antichrist.

Anyway thanks for your input. Anyone else want to take a crack at it?
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

How can literally all prophecy be already fulfilled?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This is about Israel/Jerusalem, the Holy People and the Christ event. Christ, at His second coming "in the clouds" in 70 AD...sealed up all vision and prophecy.
John of Zebedee was the last prophet.

Quote:
1. 1 Cor 15:22 says all are made alive in Christ. When did this happen? How could "all" be made alive, when "all" have not existed yet?

3. 1 Cor 15:22-28 says all enemies are defeated by Christ. When did this happen? Again, there are still many enemies in the world: wars, disease, death, etc.
The Corinthian epistles were written to the congregation of the Corinthian church. There were many false teachers preying on all the congregations Paul ministered, including this one, and the doctrine of the resurrection was being promoted amongst them as having already happened. Paul came to correct them and reiterated the expectation of this was to happen in their lifetime. This event, known as the Parousia/Presence of Jesus among all men, ahppened when He defeated His final enemy, Old Covenant Israel, responsible for not only His death, but for all His messenger's deaths from the past and present time. Jesus, at the Parousia event, resurrected all those who were in Hades/Sheol, resurrected their bodies and judged them. Remember when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

This event is in direct parallel with Rev 20. This is the first resurrection that encompassed the period between Pentacost and the Parousia event.
The saints were resurrected first, and as time continued many more died during that time, and also reigned with Him. But when the years and reign of the thousands of saints ended, the wicked in Sheol were judged.

Quote:
2. When was death defeated? Obviously people still die, so I don't see how this has been fulfilled.
The death spoken of here is not what mpst people think. It is the sting of death.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

...and the victory was andis in Jesus Christ. Through Him, we as saints, kings and priests, do not experience what is known of as the second death, the spiritual death.

1 Cor 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

Quote:
4. When is the lake of fire? When was the GWT judgement fulfilled?
The Lake of fire is a touchy subject as I have noticed around here, but without getting into a debate, I will refrain from debating it, and just give my opinion. Please, those in the UR camp, I am not here to debate this in this thread. Leave it for the Lake of Fire thread.

The Lake of Fire is the final act, the final place where Death and Hades were tossed into. This is also the place where Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet are. These things happened at the 70 AD event. Old Covenant Israel ws defeated and put "under His feet" and the New Heaven, the place Christ was preparing for His saints, and the New Earth, the church who had inherited the promises and blessings of Abraham.

Quote:
5. What happens now? Does the earth continue on forever, continuously producing people, some going to heaven when they die, others not,......... Does this current earth ever "end"? Do we ever reach an "end state" where God is simply just "all in all" and all are finally reconciled to Him?
Yes the earth continues on as the gospel grows and hopefully everyone comes to Christ. I believe in the complete fulfillment of the scripture, therefore I believe Satan has been crushed and his power is no longer here. People still worship him, as they do Hitler, Mao, Alister Crowley and so forth, but the evil and malice is in men's hearts James 4:1
But he has been defeated. Sin has been defeated through Christ's blood, so that God doesn't see our sin when we are in Christ. When we are in Christ, God is all in all of us.

Hope that helped.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This is about Israel/Jerusalem, the Holy People and the Christ event. Christ, at His second coming "in the clouds" in 70 AD...sealed up all vision and prophecy.
John of Zebedee was the last prophet.
This is a compelling argument.

Quote:
Yes the earth continues on as the gospel grows and hopefully everyone comes to Christ. I believe in the complete fulfillment of the scripture, therefore I believe Satan has been crushed and his power is no longer here. People still worship him, as they do Hitler, Mao, Alister Crowley and so forth, but the evil and malice is in men's hearts James 4:1
But he has been defeated. Sin has been defeated through Christ's blood, so that God doesn't see our sin when we are in Christ. When we are in Christ, God is all in all of us.

Hope that helped.
Yes that did help. Thanks, I will continue studying it. I see some inconsistencies, but no need for debate now. I need to work through it myself. I appreciate your answer. I see bits of truth in a lot of views, and don't really like the labels we all use "ETer/URer", "preterist/futurist". Those labels are a convenience but what we all should believe is the scripture (an interpretation of it, at least).

Just one further clarification on point #5, do you believe the earth will literally continue on as is forever, people being born, living, and dying, going to heaven/hell - the cycle continuing forever? Or will it stop at some point ie. when all people living on the earth are finally following Christ?
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Thankyou Kat, yes "A" for effort!

I'm not really looking for a big debate on this, more just trying to find out what preterists believe and how certain bible passages fit in. I'm sure I will study it more in the future.
Thanks for the A! I think the whole subject is fascinating but there are so many verses. Everytime I go a searching I find verses that apply to this or that but retaining them is another story!

Quote:
I'm not totally futurist, nor totally preterist (obviously), but I view scripture as having application in past, present, and future. The "Is, was, and will be" view.
I don't see a problem with that. I was called a preterist but like I said I have never studied actual preterist views, just my own reading of the bible.

Quote:
For example I don't see death as defeated yet, since obviously people still die (both physically and spiritually). But from the perspective of God, death is already defeated, because Christ rose from the dead and God knows his plan will be achieved. He is outside time so its already done. But for us, we will die, and then we will be resurrected, so for us that is still future.
Yes. But I still don't see a need for death to be overcome on earth. Death is part of life. If we live we must then die. We are finite beings.. You are right though that from God's perspective death is defeated because of the resurrection but that doesn't mean that death must not happen at all in the future.

Think about it this way. The spirit has very little, if any, mass. Therefore a bunch of spirits can occupy a small space. However, the body has measurable mass. So if you take how many people have ever lived, an estimated 106 billion (How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? - Population Reference Bureau), and put them all in one space bodily.. it would be very crowded here on earth. That is if noone ever died. Now I don't think the resurrection is physical but that our spirit is resurrected so I will assume that you believe in a physical bodily resurrection.

There are about 6-10 billion people alive on earth today so you can see that if noone died it would amount to about 1 square foot of living space per person. (trust me.. I have actually done the math and that is quite sad really ) So I don't think there will ever be a time when people will not die. Besides, in order to resurrected one must die first.

I believe that when we die we go into the presence of Christ who then washes us as he washed the disciples feet and we are ushered into the "holy of holies" or presence of God. Now I'm not saying this happens exactly like that but.. my point is that there is nothing more that can improve our life on earth after death and it is life on earth that the bible is about, for me.

Quote:
Regarding the antichrist/endtimes stuff, I think the futurist/rapture view is way wrong. There have been many antichrists. Like you said, Saul was an antichrist.

Anyway thanks for your input. Anyone else want to take a crack at it?
And my other point with the reference to Saul/Paul is that Saul was annihilated and became a new creature, Paul. So even the antichrists (whether systems or single people) are renewed by God and serve a purpose. Anyway... I think I have babbled enough!

Thanks for the kind words and I hope others do take a crack at it. I am glad to know that there are some of us who admit that we are still learning and don't have all the answers!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This is about Israel/Jerusalem, the Holy People and the Christ event. Christ, at His second coming "in the clouds" in 70 AD...sealed up all vision and prophecy.
John of Zebedee was the last prophet.
I would add that if you compare the statement in Daniel in the quote above to that in Revelation:
22:10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near."

Daniel 8:26 "The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."

It is interesting that Daniel is told to seal up the words because the time is well into the future (about 400 years or so I think) but John is told not to seal up the words because the time was near. It is clear that 400 was "many days in the future" but if John wrote in the 60's it was less than 10 years away, and some say he wrote in 67 or 68 AD, which would be very near.
I realize that many have dated the book of Revelation at 90 AD during the reign of Domitian but there are many reasons why I think that is in error.

Quote:
The Corinthian epistles were written to the congregation of the Corinthian church. There were many false teachers preying on all the congregations Paul ministered, including this one, and the doctrine of the resurrection was being promoted amongst them as having already happened. Paul came to correct them and reiterated the expectation of this was to happen in their lifetime. This event, known as the Parousia/Presence of Jesus among all men, ahppened when He defeated His final enemy, Old Covenant Israel, responsible for not only His death, but for all His messenger's deaths from the past and present time. Jesus, at the Parousia event, resurrected all those who were in Hades/Sheol, resurrected their bodies and judged them. Remember when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

This event is in direct parallel with Rev 20. This is the first resurrection that encompassed the period between Pentacost and the Parousia event.
The saints were resurrected first, and as time continued many more died during that time, and also reigned with Him. But when the years and reign of the thousands of saints ended, the wicked in Sheol were judged.



The death spoken of here is not what mpst people think. It is the sting of death.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

...and the victory was andis in Jesus Christ. Through Him, we as saints, kings and priests, do not experience what is known of as the second death, the spiritual death.

1 Cor 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
Some would say it is the spiritual death that is first and physical death that is second because Adam and Eve experience spiritual death first and physical death second. I just thought I'd bring that up... nonetheless great insights sciotamicks.

Quote:
The Lake of fire is a touchy subject as I have noticed around here, but without getting into a debate, I will refrain from debating it, and just give my opinion. Please, those in the UR camp, I am not here to debate this in this thread. Leave it for the Lake of Fire thread.

The Lake of Fire is the final act, the final place where Death and Hades were tossed into. This is also the place where Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet are. These things happened at the 70 AD event. Old Covenant Israel ws defeated and put "under His feet" and the New Heaven, the place Christ was preparing for His saints, and the New Earth, the church who had inherited the promises and blessings of Abraham.
Man.. I was hoping to debate something in this thread!

Yeah, the use of the lake of fire only in Revelation kinda points to it being symbolic of something else entirely like the fire that burned the bush but did not consume it.. something like that.

Quote:
Yes the earth continues on as the gospel grows and hopefully everyone comes to Christ. I believe in the complete fulfillment of the scripture, therefore I believe Satan has been crushed and his power is no longer here. People still worship him, as they do Hitler, Mao, Alister Crowley and so forth, but the evil and malice is in men's hearts James 4:1
But he has been defeated. Sin has been defeated through Christ's blood, so that God doesn't see our sin when we are in Christ. When we are in Christ, God is all in all of us.

Hope that helped.
You are very wise Obi Wan. I appreciate your post.
For me preterism and UR go hand in hand...

Anyway here is a link for you lego which gives some insights as well about how Universalism and preterism can fit together in the grand scheme of things. Dorothy Anderson wrote an article from a Hyper-preterist (HP) and universalism view that I found to be quite interesting.
Preterist Universalism Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:41 AM
 
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Regarding the antichrist/endtimes stuff, I think the futurist/rapture view is way wrong.
I see futurism beginning its slow descent into the ashes. The drivel from televangelist airheads that has brainwashed many millions of Christians into expecting a comic book 7-year tribulation run by an antichrist with a bullet-hole through his brain is finally loosening its grip as they stumble out of the darkness and into the light of reality. I do believe I am experiencing pangs of hope for this generation.
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This is a compelling argument.

Yes that did help. Thanks, I will continue studying it. I see some inconsistencies, but no need for debate now. I need to work through it myself.
You will be in my prayers my friend. I have been (sort of) where you are at. I always knew the "end time/rapture/Hal Lindsey/Left behind" stuff was bunk but yet I WAS counting on God swooping in here at some point and 'fixing' everything.

Taking a step back - Jesus clearly spoke of an actual 'return' in the lifetime of those He spoke to. The apostles also (apparently) knew this to be true. I can now see that this habit of current believers directly applying all that Jesus is recorded as saying was about to happen to us personally is obviously false. Through history EVERY generation of believers felt they were the chosen generation, and that they were those upon whom the 'end of the all things' had come. Obviously - the post AD70 believers were all mistaken in their understanding - as well as all those contemporaries whom I personally knew who thought THEY would live to see 'that day great day' but now have passed on.

Yet - I have had a personal vision of God's glory covering the earth - when I was an atheist (!). So I will never give up on a brighter day here, in this physical world.

For the record I do believe that :

A. God is presently angry at no one and is not imputing anyone's sins against them.

and :

B. God is not necessarily going to swoop in (outside of us) and fix everything. As much as I would like Him to!

It's a hard step to take though. If you want to DM about these things I would be willing to discuss. I (as you) am not desirous of a tit-for-tat verse by verse debate. Partly because of the statement: "I thank you Father that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them unto babes".

Know what I mean????
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I do believe I am experiencing pangs of hope for this generation.
Me too.
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