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Old 10-22-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
LAW & GRACE

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Hebrews 7:18-19
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” He has made the first one obsolete;and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 7:20-22
And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but He became a priest with an oath when God said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: `You are a priest forever.’” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 10:1-4
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin.

1 Timothy 1:8-10
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation.

Galatians 3:19-24
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life.

Galatians 2:16 & 21
Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

The law can only bring death.

Romans 7:10
I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

Knowone has ever kept the whole law except Christ, He kept the law perfectly for us
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 10:14
Because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Christ fulfilled the law.

The purpose of the law is to stir up sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7:5, 7-8
For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Romans 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. ( the law ) They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

The law includes the Ten Commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Romans 10:4

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so He condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24-25
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.


Romans 7:1-6
Do you not know, brothers–for I am speaking to men who know the law–that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:14
Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 3:1-3
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 1:6-8
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own, eager to do what is good.

Romans 8:14
Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the lawso that I might live for God.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
If your purpose in quoting these verses was an attempt at trying to prove that we are not to keep and obey the commandments of God...then your time was waisted. These verses you used are all out of context if that is what you used them for.

1 John 1:
3) And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

God's Word does not contradict Himself.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:19 PM
 
740 posts, read 1,805,539 times
Reputation: 471
Romans 3:19-31
19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what his law commands. For the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying it. 21 But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight – not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. 22 We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. 23 For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. 24 Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. 25 For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. 26 And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus. 27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. 29 After all, God is not the God of the Jews only, is he? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,139,479 times
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There are none so BLIND as those who will not SEE...


All we need is LOVE...la..la..la..la..la..All we need is LOVE...la..la..la..la..la...All we need is LOVE, LOVE....LOVE is all we need.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:41 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,603,493 times
Reputation: 4470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
If your purpose in quoting these verses was an attempt at trying to prove that we are not to keep and obey the commandments of God...then your time was waisted. These verses you used are all out of context if that is what you used them for.

1 John 1:
3) And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

God's Word does not contradict Himself.
Verna, just a note.

I don't believe any of us believe we should live outside of His will for us or disobey His commandments - to the point, I see our debate stems from what our motivation is for keeping them, or more precisely: why we keep them.

I personally want the reason I obey to be this: I can't do anything else. Because I'm forced to? No; but the same way a carnal man is doomed to live a life of sin because it's his nature to do so - so too, will a transformation of our nature to His result in a holy life. The source is the seed - and the fruit cannot help but be the offspring of it.

It's this passion to be one with Him - and the discarding of our old self - that leads me to want all that is required for me to be united; not just ceasing from the acts, but stripping away the nature that drove me to do those things. Similarly, not just to walk a straight line, but taking on the nature that makes His pleasure mine.

As we walk, it's not the works (what we're doing or not doing) but His gaze we're fixed upon. It's simply the "Peter effect" - when we keep Him before us, we don't sink. But the source, the Faithful Rock that cannot fail is Him.
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,139,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Verna, just a note.

I don't believe any of us believe we should live outside of His will for us or disobey His commandments - to the point, I see our debate stems from what our motivation is for keeping them, or more precisely: why we keep them.

I personally want the reason I obey to be this: I can't do anything else. Because I'm forced to? No; but the same way a carnal man is doomed to live a life of sin because it's his nature to do so - so too, will a transformation of our nature to His result in a holy life. The source is the seed - and the fruit cannot help but be the offspring of it.

It's this passion to be one with Him - and the discarding of our old self - that leads me to want all that is required for me to be united; not just ceasing from the acts, but stripping away the nature that drove me to do those things. Similarly, not just to walk a straight line, but taking on the nature that makes His pleasure mine.

As we walk, it's not the works (what we're doing or not doing) but His gaze we're fixed upon. It's simply the "Peter effect" - when we keep Him before us, we don't sink. But the source, the Faithful Rock that cannot fail is Him.
Well said my buddy!! Be Blessed!
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:07 PM
 
37,753 posts, read 25,439,358 times
Reputation: 5871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
If your purpose in quoting these verses was an attempt at trying to prove that we are not to keep and obey the commandments of God...then your time was waisted. These verses you used are all out of context if that is what you used them for.
::sigh:: As long as the "PHYSICAL obedience blinders"(carnal thinking) are in place . . . no amount of evidence or proof will penetrate . . . even this well-documented post by caucazhin that Verna refuses to see the SPIRITUAL import of. "Pet-like" obedience behaviors in the "pet show obedience trials" of this carnal life are NOT the spiritual purpose of scripture! The reason "faith" and "grace" are differentiated from obedience to the written "law" is that they are the "mental content"(faith and grace are entirely mental constructs) that matters . . . NOT the physical behaviors (carnal content).
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Verna, just a note.

I don't believe any of us believe we should live outside of His will for us or disobey His commandments - to the point, I see our debate stems from what our motivation is for keeping them, or more precisely: why we keep them.

I personally want the reason I obey to be this: I can't do anything else. Because I'm forced to? No; but the same way a carnal man is doomed to live a life of sin because it's his nature to do so - so too, will a transformation of our nature to His result in a holy life. The source is the seed - and the fruit cannot help but be the offspring of it.

It's this passion to be one with Him - and the discarding of our old self - that leads me to want all that is required for me to be united; not just ceasing from the acts, but stripping away the nature that drove me to do those things. Similarly, not just to walk a straight line, but taking on the nature that makes His pleasure mine.

As we walk, it's not the works (what we're doing or not doing) but His gaze we're fixed upon. It's simply the "Peter effect" - when we keep Him before us, we don't sink. But the source, the Faithful Rock that cannot fail is Him.
little elmer......take each word you typed here in your post, and put my name to it as well...because this is exactly how I feel.

I love you...
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Old 10-22-2009, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 862,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Verna, just a note.

I don't believe any of us believe we should live outside of His will for us or disobey His commandments - to the point, I see our debate stems from what our motivation is for keeping them, or more precisely: why we keep them.

I personally want the reason I obey to be this: I can't do anything else. Because I'm forced to? No; but the same way a carnal man is doomed to live a life of sin because it's his nature to do so - so too, will a transformation of our nature to His result in a holy life. The source is the seed - and the fruit cannot help but be the offspring of it.

It's this passion to be one with Him - and the discarding of our old self - that leads me to want all that is required for me to be united; not just ceasing from the acts, but stripping away the nature that drove me to do those things. Similarly, not just to walk a straight line, but taking on the nature that makes His pleasure mine.

As we walk, it's not the works (what we're doing or not doing) but His gaze we're fixed upon. It's simply the "Peter effect" - when we keep Him before us, we don't sink. But the source, the Faithful Rock that cannot fail is Him.
Well put elmer!! This is exactly what I was trying to say. I was not implying that we are "pets" or "robots" but that the two things "love" and "commandments" go hand-in-hand. The Holy spirit was the gift given to us to guide us in the direction of Christ's love. Your right no one is without sin!!! That is why we needed devine intervention from Jesus and the Holy spirit to show us how it is done!!! With their guidance we can change our sinful ways. When we let Jesus and his Holy spirit into our hearts, and only then can we be changed and commit sin no more!!!! I was not listing the commandments as a "list" of rules to be followed. My point is that Jesus said the thought of adultery is still adultery no matter how you look at it. He was not speaking of only the one commandment but all of them. All sin and thoughts of sin fall somewhere under the category of the ten commandments. The pharisees tried to obey commandments without love, but were unable to because they were still sinning with their thoughts. So that means without love fulfilling the ten commandments is impossible!!! Thanks again, elmer


GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:34 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,580,014 times
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[quote=little elmer;11301480]Verna, just a note.

Quote:
I don't believe any of us believe we should live outside of His will for us or disobey His commandments - to the point, I see our debate stems from what our motivation is for keeping them, or more precisely: why we keep them.
Just curious LE - do you keep the 7th day Sabbath as HE commanded? If not then it would appear that any comment indicating that you keep his commandments might be some form of hypocrisy.


HK
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Right where I want to be.
4,507 posts, read 7,858,868 times
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I still don't know what I'm supposed to do next month when I am 'unclean' again. If I sit on the couch or sleep in the bed, it will be unclean. If I sit on the kitchen stools they will be unclean, if I hug my kids goodbye before school or my DH when he comes home from work, they will be unclean.
I have to spend the week sitting on a mat on the floor, all by myself, and sleeping somewhere besides in the bed I have always shared with my spouse. Yeah, the law kind of sucks for women.
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