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Exactly. But the funny thing is you don't even need scripture to understand and frame the question. Falling on scripture to say it is "justice" is a cop-out.
Rationally, think this through. How can it be justice when God tortures someone eternally for being exactly as He predetermined them to be? It makes no sense, and is completely opposite to the definition of justice.
The question isn't whether God could do that or not (God could if He wanted to - I just don't think He would according to scripture). The queston is: what definition of "justice" are you using that suggests it is justice to torture people for eternity for doing exactly what you made them to be.
It makes no rational or logical sense.
And most fundamental Christians today throw out reason and logic as if they are bad things. It absolutely baffles me. Paul said, "Come, let us reason together...".
Calvinist always say the same thing..."Well, that is what the Word says (according to my specific interpretation and level of Calvinism) and if that is what God defines as justice and love then that is justice and love because God said so."
Basically, "God's ways aren't our ways".
The whole "God's ways are not man's ways" thing is totally true...up to a point. But in the finality of things, at every person's deepest core, they know right from wrong. Something inside tells us it is wrong to cheat, to lie, to steal, to kill...and these innate knowings come from God.
All of us miss it in our lives and do something we know is wrong, and some are created to go down a path of destruction in this life. (That doesn't mean, by the way, that we as Christians don't do all we can to be Salt and Light to the world, to share Jesus with them and the true hope and joy that comes from Him.)But our whole concept of love, and justice and right and wrong ultimately comes from Him. Some people fall very far away indeed and do make evil choices and will be held accountable for them. . But ultimately we know the deep core of what these things are and the differences between them. We know. In this sense, we very much are doing God's ways, when we do what we know is right We are told that the greatest of these is love, to love unconditionally, that faith without love is nothing ect.
So we are told, according to Calvinism, to love as God Himself does not? That God's idea of justice is actually morally corrupt in comparison to how we--flawed man!--view it logically and emotionally as well?
I'm sorry, but that is just so warped. And sad. And blasphemous!
But of course not for them, because they are the Chosen.
God is leading mankind, I believe, on a path towards a time that is past time, where there is no more death, when death and hell and evil have been defeated forever (not eternally existing somewhere), and God has truly become All in All.
I don't take any offense at any of this, but thanks Fundy for backing me...that was really nice, considering our views on eschatology differ greatly. The underlying theme here is that we all love Christ deeply, no matter how our views differ. John of Zebedee once said, and we should all live by it so we don't fall into the same trap the Inquisition fell into and executed some of our greatest theologians:
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
The next 50 years are going to be trying for all of us, and inevitably, if the futurists aren't correct, that our views and words should denote what the scriptures say, not what the creeds proclaim, for the scriptures are the bottom line when men err, and men err, here and there.
Since this is a Calvin thread I will post one of his uncanny thoughts:
I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels. - John Calvin
Exactly. But the funny thing is you don't even need scripture to understand and frame the question. Falling on scripture to say it is "justice" is a cop-out.
Rationally, think this through. How can it be justice when God tortures someone eternally for being exactly as He predetermined them to be? It makes no sense, and is completely opposite to the definition of justice.
The question isn't whether God could do that or not (God could if He wanted to - I just don't think He would according to scripture). The queston is: what definition of "justice" are you using that suggests it is justice to torture people for eternity for doing exactly what you made them to be.
It makes no rational or logical sense.
I've been trying to think this statement through my whole life!
I don't take any offense at any of this, but thanks Fundy for backing me...that was really nice, considering our views on eschatology differ greatly. The underlying theme here is that we all love Christ deeply, no matter how our views differ. John of Zebedee once said, and we should all live by it so we don't fall into the same trap the Inquisition fell into and executed some of our greatest theologians:
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
The next 50 years are going to be trying for all of us, and inevitably, if the futurists aren't correct, that our views and words should denote what the scriptures say, not what the creeds proclaim, for the scriptures are the bottom line when men err, and men err, here and there.
Since this is a Calvin thread I will post one of his uncanny thoughts:
I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels. - John Calvin
And most fundamental Christians today throw out reason and logic as if they are bad things. It absolutely baffles me. Paul said, "Come, let us reason together...".
Calvinist always say the same thing..."Well, that is what the Word says (according to my specific interpretation and level of Calvinism) and if that is what God defines as justice and love then that is justice and love because God said so."
Basically, "God's ways aren't our ways".
The whole "God's ways are not man's ways" thing is totally true...up to a point. But in the finality of things, at every person's deepest core, they know right from wrong. Something inside tells us it is wrong to cheat, to lie, to steal, to kill...and these innate knowings come from God.
All of us miss it in our lives and do something we know is wrong, and some are created to go down a path of destruction in this life. (That doesn't mean, by the way, that we as Christians don't do all we can to be Salt and Light to the world, to share Jesus with them and the true hope and joy that comes from Him.)But our whole concept of love, and justice and right and wrong ultimately comes from Him. Some people fall very far away indeed and do make evil choices and will be held accountable for them. . But ultimately we know the deep core of what these things are and the differences between them. We know. In this sense, we very much are doing God's ways, when we do what we know is right We are told that the greatest of these is love, to love unconditionally, that faith without love is nothing ect.
So we are told, according to Calvinism, to love as God Himself does not? That God's idea of justice is actually morally corrupt in comparison to how we--flawed man!--view it logically and emotionally as well?
I'm sorry, but that is just so warped. And sad. And blasphemous!
But of course not for them, because they are the Chosen.
God is leading mankind, I believe, on a path towards a time that is past time, where there is no more death, when death and hell and evil have been defeated forever (not eternally existing somewhere), and God has truly become All in All.
I read this on another forum and thought it appropriate:
The issue is not whether or not man can hold God to man's sense of justice; but whether or not men can interpret the Bible in such a way as to teach that God directly violates justice, which all men (being made in God's image) have an innate understanding of. Some men "call evil good and good evil," teaching that God would do what is unjust and calling it just, and then claim that men have no more right in this matter to question them than to question God. In this, they beg the question. Realism is not a means to impugn God's justice; rather, it is a means to impugn the erroneous, nominalistic view of God's justice. Justice is a matter of morality and law, and as such, it is written by God on the hearts of all men, since we were made in His image. Though that image is marred, it is still regarded by God to be adequate to give us an innate knowledge of the law sufficient to leave men without excuse. Justice cannot be separated from law and morality, as an unjust act is an immoral and unlawful act. Therefore, if the innate knowledge of God's law, written on the hearts of all men, is sufficient for us to understand what is right and what is wrong, then it is sufficient for us to understand what is just and what is unjust.
Justice has been written on my heart. In my understanding there can be no sense of the word justice that would mean it is just for God to predestine people to eternal torture.
I read this on another forum and thought it appropriate:
The issue is not whether or not man can hold God to man's sense of justice; but whether or not men can interpret the Bible in such a way as to teach that God directly violates justice, which all men (being made in God's image) have an innate understanding of. Some men "call evil good and good evil," teaching that God would do what is unjust and calling it just, and then claim that men have no more right in this matter to question them than to question God. In this, they beg the question. Realism is not a means to impugn God's justice; rather, it is a means to impugn the erroneous, nominalistic view of God's justice. Justice is a matter of morality and law, and as such, it is written by God on the hearts of all men, since we were made in His image. Though that image is marred, it is still regarded by God to be adequate to give us an innate knowledge of the law sufficient to leave men without excuse. Justice cannot be separated from law and morality, as an unjust act is an immoral and unlawful act. Therefore, if the innate knowledge of God's law, written on the hearts of all men, is sufficient for us to understand what is right and what is wrong, then it is sufficient for us to understand what is just and what is unjust.
Justice has been written on my heart. In my understanding there can be no sense of the word justice that would mean it is just for God to predestine people to eternal torture.
I read this on another forum and thought it appropriate:
The issue is not whether or not man can hold God to man's sense of justice; but whether or not men can interpret the Bible in such a way as to teach that God directly violates justice, which all men (being made in God's image) have an innate understanding of. Some men "call evil good and good evil," teaching that God would do what is unjust and calling it just, and then claim that men have no more right in this matter to question them than to question God. In this, they beg the question. Realism is not a means to impugn God's justice; rather, it is a means to impugn the erroneous, nominalistic view of God's justice. Justice is a matter of morality and law, and as such, it is written by God on the hearts of all men, since we were made in His image. Though that image is marred, it is still regarded by God to be adequate to give us an innate knowledge of the law sufficient to leave men without excuse. Justice cannot be separated from law and morality, as an unjust act is an immoral and unlawful act. Therefore, if the innate knowledge of God's law, written on the hearts of all men, is sufficient for us to understand what is right and what is wrong, then it is sufficient for us to understand what is just and what is unjust.
Justice has been written on my heart. In my understanding there can be no sense of the word justice that would mean it is just for God to predestine people to eternal torture.
Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
God is all in all...only through Christ
I agree... did you want to tie this into the topic of the thread?
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