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Old 10-22-2009, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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No not really...but it just came in mind after I read your last post. You can if you would like
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:12 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?

You obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest that you check the definition of Lapsarianism.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 691,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
You obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest that you check the definition of Lapsarianism.
Please, educate us. I see nothing that is factually untrue with the OP's understanding of Calvinism.

Looked up Lapsarianism. I see nothing but gobbledigook that adds up to the same thing: God created people to be damned forever. Whoopee.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,959 posts, read 4,641,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?
First, Calvinism (I'm not a Calvinist, Armenian, Baptist, etc. simply a Christian) is a set of ideas based on Scripture. To many that are unregenerate it makes no sense as does all of the Bible. So digging into Calvinism while unsaved is like trying to learn math by doing algebra first that's why it makes no sense.

Second, your OP #1 is incorrect Calvinism does not say that. Man is born in sin and exhibits practical sins, which until repented of and becoming born again in Christ, destines you to hell. And naturally #2 is incorrect also.

Third, your "brand" of justice and God's kind is very different be careful "God is not mocked."
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,566,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
First, Calvinism (I'm not a Calvinist, Armenian, Baptist, etc. simply a Christian) is a set of ideas based on Scripture. To many that are unregenerate it makes no sense as does all of the Bible. So digging into Calvinism while unsaved is like trying to learn math by doing algebra first that's why it makes no sense.

Second, your OP #1 is incorrect Calvinism does not say that. Man is born in sin and exhibits practical sins, which until repented of and becoming born again in Christ, destines you to hell. And naturally #2 is incorrect also.

Third, your "brand" of justice and God's kind is very different be careful "God is not mocked."
We're not mocking God - we're mocking the absurdity of pre-destined damnation. I am more than happy to do so and God doesn't mind me doing it either.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 691,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
First, Calvinism (I'm not a Calvinist, Armenian, Baptist, etc. simply a Christian) is a set of ideas based on Scripture. To many that are unregenerate it makes no sense as does all of the Bible. So digging into Calvinism while unsaved is like trying to learn math by doing algebra first that's why it makes no sense.

Second, your OP #1 is incorrect Calvinism does not say that. Man is born in sin and exhibits practical sins, which until repented of and becoming born again in Christ, destines you to hell. And naturally #2 is incorrect also.

Third, your "brand" of justice and God's kind is very different be careful "God is not mocked."
Okay I am not unregenerate and find Calvinism repulsive. I am a born again Christian. I attend a non-denom charismatic church.

According to Calvinism, humans are incapable of adding anything to obtain salvation and God alone is the initiator at every stage of salvation—including the formation of faith and every decision to follow Christ. It contends that humans are utterly depraved--through no fault of their own, they are born into it.

In this view, all people are entirely at the mercy of God, who would be just (really????) in condemning all people for their sins but who has chosen to be merciful to some. One person is saved while another is condemned, not because of a foreseen willingness, faith, or any other virtue in the first person, but because God sovereignly chose to have mercy on them.

This goes against every moral concept of justice. The whole "God's ways aren't ours" is bull. You mean you look at this logically and find this to be the concept and action of a loving God?

Logic and reason are not and should be four letter words to Christians. Listen to your heart...if you are truly a Christian, it will tell you it is Calvinism itself that is...utterly depraved.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Well said Marks
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
This goes against every moral concept of justice.
"This (Predestination through sovereignty?) goes against every moral concept of justice."

How so?

Both predestination and God's sovereignty are purely Scriptural.

When it comes time for the 'Great Day of the Lord,' do you want God's justice or God's mercy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
The whole "God's ways aren't ours" is bull.
OK. So if God's ways are our ways, why do we need God? What makes God - God? What makes man - man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
You mean you look at this (predestination/God's sovereignty?) logically and find this to be the concept and action of a loving God?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Logic and reason (are not and?) should be four letter words to Christians. Listen to your heart...if you are truly a Christian, it will tell you it is Calvinism itself that is...utterly depraved.
Totally absurd. Without reason and logic there is chaos and incoherence. Without reason and logic there is no theology or science and no way to understand scripture.
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 691,402 times
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Lightbulb For your consideration

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
"This (Predestination through sovereignty?) goes against every moral concept of justice."

How so?

Both predestination and God's sovereignty are purely Scriptural.
Well, I should already know better to argue with a Calvinist, but evidently I love to bang my head against brick walls....

I've already stated "how so" in an earlier post on this thread, but, again, first of all, this concept being "purely scriptural" is only according to the Calvinist interpretation. But I'll digress from that point...

Okay. Calvinism says that God predestines the vast majority of people to be born into an "utterly depraved" existance and have no redeeming qualities of thier own. The fact that they are born this way is not their fault but the fault of someone (Adam) who lived thousands of years ago. Because of this, and because God did not "pre-elect" them, they will live and die in sin. Because they died in sin they will burn forever in hell.

That a God we are told is loving does this makes no sense and turns the stomach of any reasonable person with any concept of justice.

God's ways are not our ways? Indeed.

The Calvinist's answer to this is that it IS justice and love because God says it is and we have no right to question that. That is what I say is bull! It blasphemes God and warps the idea of true love and justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
When it comes time for the 'Great Day of the Lord,' do you want God's justice or God's mercy?
I'll take both, since I know that Jesus died to SAVE the WORLD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
OK. So if God's ways are our ways, why do we need God? What makes God - God? What makes man - man?
When we CHOOSE to do what we know is right, we are doing "God's ways". When we don't , we aren't.

God is not human and fallible. We are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Totally absurd. Without reason and logic there is chaos and incoherence. Without reason and logic there is no theology or science and no way to understand scripture.
I completely agree, which is why I said that reason and logic are thrown out the window too often by many Christians. But you are sitting there defending reason and logic while saying that it is reasonable and logical for God to create people simply to live a downfallen life and then spend eternity in misery, through no fault of their own. They really had no choice in the matter because God did not draw them and never intended to.

Really?

P.S. I just read my mistake in my previous post about "reason and logic". I did not mean to say that they SHOULD be four letter words for Christians, but that they SHOULD NOT be. Sorry for the confusion.

Last edited by daddythreepointoh; 10-24-2009 at 02:21 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
I've already stated "how so" in an earlier post on this thread, but, again, first of all, this concept being "purely scriptural" is only according to the Calvinist interpretation. But I'll digress from that point...

Okay. Calvinism says that God predestines the vast majority of people to be born into an "utterly depraved" existence and have no redeeming qualities of their own. The fact that they are born this way is not their fault but the fault of someone (Adam) who lived thousands of years ago. Because of this, and because God did not "pre-elect" them, they will live and die in sin. Because they died in sin they will burn forever in hell.

That a God we are told is loving does this makes no sense and turns the stomach of any reasonable person with any concept of justice.

God's ways are not our ways? Indeed.

The Calvinist's answer to this is that it IS justice and love because God says it is and we have no right to question that. That is what I say is bull! It blasphemes God and warps the idea of true love and justice.
I'm just another layman and certainly no expert on the life and teaching of John Calvin.

Did Calvin teach the concept of "equal ultimacy?" To my knowledge, no.

Also, Calvin could not possibly have taught "hyper-Calvinism" otherwise it could not possibly be known as "hyper-Calvinism."

You (and the OP) paint with a broad brush. You paint a picture of all Calvinists subscribing to both equal ultimacy and hyper-Calvinism. If you checked out the definition of lapsarianism then you will know that there is great debate and division within the Calvinist community over the extension of God's sovereignty and the meaning of predestination.

Would it be proper for me to make the same sort of broad brush presumptions about all Arminians?

In terms of our salvation and our obligation to be Christian brothers, this is all a small thing. I agree whole heartily with the phrase: "The plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things."

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
I'll take both, since I know that Jesus died to SAVE the WORLD.
It is a very serious question. Do you honestly believe that you can stand before God on the final day, justified by your own merit?

If Jesus died for the condemned, how could they possibly be condemned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
When we CHOOSE to do what we know is right, we are doing "God's ways". When we don't , we aren't.
What freedom do we actually have to choose anything. Scripture informs us that there are things that even God is not free to choose. Would you not agree that any freedom of choice we presume to have is no more than limited freedom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
God is not human and fallible. We are.
Agreed. Therefore, God's ways are certainly above and beyond our ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
But you are sitting there defending reason and logic while saying that it is reasonable and logical for God to create people simply to live a downfallen life and then spend eternity in misery, through no fault of their own. They really had no choice in the matter because God did not draw them and never intended to.
I've never stated any such thing and, to my knowledge, Calvin never suggested any such thing either.

The same God that allowed the fall has also provided redemption for the elect through Christ Jesus, the second Adam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
P.S. I just read my mistake in my previous post about "reason and logic". I did not mean to say that they SHOULD be four letter words for Christians, but that they SHOULD NOT be. Sorry for the confusion.
Good. We both agree that reason and logic are vitally important.
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