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Old 10-24-2009, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 692,102 times
Reputation: 123

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I'm just another layman and certainly no expert on the life and teaching of John Calvin.

Did Calvin teach the concept of "equal ultimacy?" To my knowledge, no.

Also, Calvin could not possibly have taught "hyper-Calvinism" otherwise it could not possibly be known as "hyper-Calvinism."

You (and the OP) paint with a broad brush. You paint a picture of all Calvinists subscribing to both equal ultimacy and hyper-Calvinism. If you checked out the definition of lapsarianism then you will know that there is great debate and division within the Calvinist community over the extension of God's sovereignty and the meaning of predestination.

Would it be proper for me to make the same sort of broad brush presumptions about all Arminians?

In terms of our salvation and our obligation to be Christian brothers, this is all a small thing. I agree whole heartily with the phrase: "The plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things."



It is a very serious question. Do you honestly believe that you can stand before God on the final day, justified by your own merit?

If Jesus died for the condemned, how could they possibly be condemned?



What freedom do we actually have to choose anything. Scripture informs us that there are things that even God is not free to choose. Would you not agree that any freedom of choice we presume to have is no more than limited freedom?



Agreed. Therefore, God's ways are certainly above and beyond our ways.



I've never stated any such thing and, to my knowledge, Calvin never suggested any such thing either.

The same God that allowed the fall has also provided redemption for the elect through Christ Jesus, the second Adam.



Good. We both agree that reason and logic are vitally important.

I should probably start out by saying that I am not an Arminian, although I was raised that way and my church believes that way. I myself am an Universalist.

So, having said that, yes I TOTALLY agree that we only have limited freewill. That is a point upon which most Calvinists and Universalists agree....about the only one I think, but there it is. LOL

Regarding lapsarianism, I just don't see what real difference there is in all the different degrees. I mean, how can one question the extension of God's sovereignty and the meaning of predestination? Either God is sovereign, or He is not. Either He knows ALL, or He doesn't. Anything else, any arguments regarding "varying degrees", or regarding God's forknowledge or predestination, are simply lame ways to maintain a belief in an eternal hell that co-exists with an all-knowing, all powerful God who IS Love.

You state that the same God that allowed the fall has also provided redemption for the elect. Well WHOOOPIE!! for the elect. What about the rest?

Right, it's not for us to question. In other words, logic and reason and even a Christian's idea of love and justice go right out the proverbial window.

Please, in your response, explain how my last paragraph of my last post (that you claim you or Calvin never said) is factually wrong, according to Calvinism. I said..."(Calvinism says that) it is reasonable and logical for God to create people simply to live a downfallen life and then spend eternity in misery, through no fault of their own. They really had no choice in the matter because God did not draw them and never intended to.

That isn't what Calvinists believe? Please explain.
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,398,783 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
I should probably start out by saying that I am not an Arminian, although I was raised that way and my church believes that way. I myself am an Universalist.
It appears that you missed or chose to ignore the whole point about painting with a broad brush.

In terms of who qualifies as 'Calvinist' or 'Arminian,' it matters not at all with respect to my broad brush assertion. Are you going to respond to this or is this going to be a one-way-street sort of discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Regarding lapsarianism, I just don't see what real difference there is in all the different degrees. I mean, how can one question the extension of God's sovereignty and the meaning of predestination? Either God is sovereign, or He is not. Either He knows ALL, or He doesn't. Anything else, any arguments regarding "varying degrees", or regarding God's forknowledge or predestination, are simply lame ways to maintain a belief in an eternal hell that co-exists with an all-knowing, all powerful God who IS Love.
There is Lapsarianism, Supralapsarianism, Infralapsarianism, Sublapsarianism and Postlapsarianism. Vastly more complicated than the simple asertion of the "is or isn't," or "this or that" approach towards God's sovereignty. You may not like it or understand it but that doesn't change the reality of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
You state that the same God that allowed the fall has also provided redemption for the elect. Well WHOOOPIE!! for the elect. What about the rest?
I asked if you thought you could stand before God on the last day justified by your own merit. Are you going to answer the question?

I'm not sure exactly what hell is. Scripture informs us that it's eternal and it isn't good and there are many going there. If there is no punishment, how can there be any justice? The non-elect have chosen not to run for election.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Right, it's not for us to question. In other words, logic and reason and even a Christian's idea of love and justice go right out the proverbial window.
Sorry. I don't get what it is you are trying to assert here. This is in answer to what assertion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Please, in your response, explain how my last paragraph of my last post (that you claim you or Calvin never said) is factually wrong, according to Calvinism. I said..."(Calvinism says that) it is reasonable and logical for God to create people simply to live a downfallen life and then spend eternity in misery, through no fault of their own. They really had no choice in the matter because God did not draw them and never intended to.
As already stated, you're painting with a broad brush.

Speaking for myself and my own understanding of the reformed view, God does not create people for the express purpose of destruction. To paraphrase: 'God is not willing that anyone should parish.' or words to that effect. The people going to hell are all volunteers. God, through grace and mercy, chooses, by God's own sovereignty, whom to pursuade to turn away from evil and whom to hand over to their own evil desires. God allows the unconverted to choose to remain unconverted, which, is a far cry from causing them to become unconverted.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:26 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,414,423 times
Reputation: 682
Hi tigetmax,

How about we look at this from the logical perspective only. We can drop all the labels; calvinist/arminian/infra/supra/lapsarian/whatever.

I will preface this and say I also believe God will save all people, though I don't like the label "Universalist", it is simply another label.

So lets look at it logically:

God is sovereign. God sovereignly predestines some people to be saved. If He doesn't predestine the rest to be saved as well, then He has implicitly predestined them to hell.

Like daddythreepointoh said, quite simply this means God has predestined these people to live a life here (with some suffering and possibly joy), and then spend eternity in hell.

How can that have any relation to the concept of justice?
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:33 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,398,783 times
Reputation: 106
Hello Legoman,

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I will preface this and say I also believe God will save all people, though I don't like the label "Universalist", it is simply another label.
You state that you want to look at this logically. What is your logical reason for believing that God will save all people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So lets look at it logically:

God is sovereign.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God sovereignly predestines some people to be saved.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
If He doesn't predestine the rest to be saved as well, then He has implicitly predestined them to hell.
The hyper-Calvinist and those holding to equal ultimacy would agree with this - I don't.

This is what is known in logic as a false premise. Another possible answer is that those going to hell are volunteering to go to hell. Did God foreknow that those going to hell would volunteer to go to hell? Yes. Did God cause them to go to hell, want them to go to hell, or create them for the express purpose of going to hell? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Like daddythreepointoh said, quite simply this means God has predestined these people to live a life here (with some suffering and possibly joy), and then spend eternity in hell.
daddythreepointoh is building, what is known in logic as, a strawman. As stated, I reject the premise. Is my rejection of the aforementioned premise unreasonable and illogical? If yes, please provide a reasonable and logical explaination as to why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
How can that have any relation to the concept of justice?
Grace and mercy stand in opposition to justice. Through grace and mercy we are spared from the judgment we do deserve and gifted with eternal life that we don't deserve.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:03 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,414,423 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
You state that you want to look at this logically. What is your logical reason for believing that God will save all people?
God is love. Love does not purpose or allow people to be tormented for eternity. Love does not even create an eternal torture chamber. According to most of mainstream Christianity, either:

1. God is not able to save all people
OR
2. God is not willing to save all people

Neither of these is consistent with an all-powerful all-loving God who is the essence of love.


Quote:
The hyper-Calvinist and those holding to equal ultimacy would agree with this - I don't.
Most Calvinist's I've talked to say that God predestines some to heaven, and the rest are predestined to hell.

Logically, if there is a hell, they are right.

Quote:
This is what is known in logic as a false premise. Another possible answer is that those going to hell are volunteering to go to hell. Did God foreknow that those going to hell would volunteer to go to hell? Yes. Did God cause them to go to hell, want them to go to hell, or create them for the express purpose of going to hell? No.
No false premise. You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN.

Quote:
daddythreepointoh is building, what is known in logic as, a strawman. As stated, I reject the premise. Is my rejection of the aforementioned premise unreasonable and illogical? If yes, please provide a reasonable and logical explaination as to why.
Yes it is illogical because the only reason people are saved is by God's sovereign will, and the only reason people are NOT saved is also because of God's sovereign will. If you claim people are not saved because they volunteered to go to hell, then you have suddenly overruled God's sovereignty, so now God is no longer sovereign.

Quote:
Grace and mercy stand in opposition to justice. Through grace and mercy we are spared from the judgment we do deserve and gifted with eternal life that we don't deserve.
Grace and mercy are not in opposition to justice. God's love, grace, mercy, justice, and judgement are all working together to achieve God's will. God is not composed of contradictory attributes nor are His actions contradictory.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 692,102 times
Reputation: 123
Ah, the strawman. The silly word that Calvinists always throw out whenever they can't answer the questions posed to them.

Tigetman, I have had this exact same arguement in much greater detail and length numerous times, on this site and others. I said at the beginning of a previous post that debating a Calvinist is akin to beating my head against a brick wall...well now I've got a headache and a bleeding cut above my right eyebrow. I'm going to stop before I get a concussion.

You're questions to me don't really make alot of sense from my perspective because, judging by the questions asked, you also are assuming things about my belief system, as I may have done as well. I dunno.

I'll go ahead and admit I paint Calvinists with a broad brush because basically the Calvinist belief system only varies over semantics. Like, Did God create the non-elect knowing they would reject him? Did he create them TO reject Him? Does it matter? The bottom line is God created people knowing that they would end up in Hell. They did not ask to be made to live in a miserable existance, He chose that for them. Lovely.

And does anyone really volunteer to go to hell? WOULD anyone choose an eternity in misery if hell were made absolutely literally known to them before they died, and then heaven too, so that a REAL choice could be made?

Could I stand before God on the day of judgement on my own merit? Well, I don't understand the relation of your question to what we are discussing, and thus my thinking you are misunderstanding something, but it's not a problem to answer that. The answer is no, not the way that God chose to set Things up. I need an Advocate....Jesus Christ, who died to pay the price for my sins. According to my understanding of Calvinism, God influenced my limited will to accept Jesus because He pre-elected me. Those sins I previously committed were because I was utterly depraved, according to Calvinism. Did I choose to be that way? No. But Calvinistic semantics will let God off the hook there.

The non-elect have chosen not to run for election? Are we being serious? Why would they if they are the NON-ELECT?

Okay, next part, you don't get my assertion. Legoman said it much better than me and you answered him with the aforementioned Calvinistic semantics. Did God foreknow, did He cause...ect ect. Blah blah.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:36 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Hello Legoman,



You state that you want to look at this logically. What is your logical reason for believing that God will save all people?
Simple because of His divine nature and character.

If i being evil would do anything to save my own children from the clutches of the most evil of the imaginations of man , how much more would God ?
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:25 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Simple because of His divine nature and character.

If i being evil would do anything to save my own children from the clutches of the most evil of the imaginations of man , how much more would God ?
what verse is that? You are creating an idol by stating such a thing with no scipture to support your opinion furthermore it is illogical what you say not to mention contradicts the nature of the God you create in your mind. You said, you will do anything, would you murder, steal, rape? and you said, how much more God would do? So how much more would He do?
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:09 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
what verse is that? You are creating an idol by stating such a thing with no scipture to support your opinion furthermore it is illogical what you say not to mention contradicts the nature of the God you create in your mind. You said, you will do anything, would you murder, steal, rape? and you said, how much more God would do? So how much more would He do?
Fundy can you not understand that to talk in the spirit you do not have to quote word from word the written word .

How about the scriptures telling us "If you being evil know how to give good gifts to children , how much more your Heavenly Father.

How hard is that for you to understand ?

Are you so blind not to see that your own mis interpretaion of the scriptures defame the nature and character of God,, and whatsmore how hard is it for you to comprehend what Jesus was saying when He said "How much more'? , it's almost as if you hate the thought of Him being God by divine nature and character.

Your interpretation of how much more seems to be how much less ,
especially when you twist and distort the scriptures such as "my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:17 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Fundy can you not understand that to talk in the spirit you do not have to quote word from word the written word .

How about the scriptures telling us "If you being evil know how to give good gifts to children , how much more your Heavenly Father.

How hard is that for you to understand ?

Are you so blind not to see that your own mis interpretaion of the scriptures defame the nature and character of God,, and whatsmore how hard is it for you to comprehend what Jesus was saying when He said "How much more'? , it's almost as if you hate the thought of Him being God by divine nature and character.

Your interpretation of how much more seems to be how much less ,
especially when you twist and distort the scriptures such as "my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".
You are absolutely famous for not answering a question. I asked you a question. Please answer.
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