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Old 10-26-2009, 03:41 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I can say the same about Roman Catholicism;praying to dead people, venerating Mary, purgatory, hail mary's for murdering someone....but I won't
But you just did. And as a depraved, horrible human being, you can not accurately make that call. The Catholics may be the elect. Man, that's something to think about.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
But you just did. And as a depraved, horrible human being, you can not accurately make that call. The Catholics may be the elect. Man, that's something to think about.
I believe you can, by allowing the Holy Spirit to tell the individual. Was the Holy Spirit dwelling inside the hitman? I don't know so maybe the priest should have found out and allowed the Holy Spirit to do His job?
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes. I include all scripture in the view that God saves all people. There is alot of scriptural study on this here:
Tentmaker.org
bible-truths.com
Merciful Truth

God desires and wills to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4). God can and does achieve that which He desires (Isaiah 46:10-11, Isaiah 55:11, Job 23:13), and what He desires is to save all men. God's plan is to bring together and unify all things and sum them up in Christ (Eph 1:10). God will reconcile the world (Col 1:20) though Christ. God will deliver all from the bondage of sin (Romans 8:20-21) and then every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance (an willing oath of loyalty) to Christ (Isaiah 45:22-23). Its good news for ALL people, just like Luke 2:10 says.
There is really no need for you to waste time with all the scripture cut and paste. You seem to have overlooked my qualifier: "contextual understanding of scripture."

Anyone can pull a variety of verses out and apply them to any number of view points. The atheists/agnostics do this on a regular basis.

If you want a battle over contextual scripture - based on what I see in this post, it would be no contest. The traditional orthodox reformed view destroys your 'universal' schema.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Jesus never spoke about hell. Jesus spoke about Gehenna. Check the translations.
Deflection. Your nuanced redefinition does nothing to address my assertion. This place (eternal place of weeping and gnashing of teeth) that Jesus refers to repeatedly, more than any other topic, why such emphasis on something that you view as totally unimportant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


Lets look at the meaning of these phrases:

Vanity: empty, profitless, vain, depravity, wickedness
Bondage: slavery, subjection
Corruption: spoiled, ruin, depraved, defile, destroy, decay, perish

There you have it. God made us subject to depravity and wickedness! Man didn't have a choice in the matter! Men didn't have a choice to not be sinners. God made us slaves to sin. God is responsible for that.

Verse 21 confirms that God does indeed take responsibility, because He will deliver us from the bondage of sin into the liberty of the children of God.
Scripture interprets scripture. Truth cannot be contradictory. Again, you lack contextual support. For each and every verse you quote here there is other scripture to contradict it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
LOL, well I don't claim that God predestines people to hell. You are right in that you won't find a scripture that says that. I suppose you need to ask the Calvinists who claim God predestines people go to hell.
My view is that it would be a very very small group. I personally don't know nor have I ever met a hyper-Calvinist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
If you claim God predestines some to be saved, and doesn't predestine the rest to be saved, then implicitly God has predestined the rest to hell. Simple logic. If God hands certain evil doers over to their own evil desires, yet saves other evil doers, then it is all God's decision: God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
We've been over this before - you are asserting a false premise. You have provided no reasonable or logical objection to the alternative view that I provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Who said evil is not unpunished? Not me. Scripture is clear evil will be abolished and the wicked will be destroyed. Wickedness will be abolished along with evil.
How is evil punished without punishing evil doers? Are you asserting that evil doers will ultimately be annihilated?
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:41 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
There is really no need for you to waste time with all the scripture cut and paste. You seem to have overlooked my qualifier: "contextual understanding of scripture."

Anyone can pull a variety of verses out and apply them to any number of view points. The atheists/agnostics do this on a regular basis.

If you want a battle over contextual scripture - based on what I see in this post, it would be no contest. The traditional orthodox reformed view destroys your 'universal' schema.
Pulling the "context" card is simply saying you don't want to discuss the scripture or you don't believe the scripture. You don't believe God desires and wills to save all men?

Who's to say your "context" is correct? God is love in any context. Or maybe you believe God is love "only in context". In my next post I will present some scripture and we can discuss the context.

Quote:
Deflection. Your nuanced redefinition does nothing to address my assertion. This place (eternal place of weeping and gnashing of teeth) that Jesus refers to repeatedly, more than any other topic, why such emphasis on something that you view as totally unimportant?
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions. Jesus never spoke of a place of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth either. Provide scripture if you think He did please.

Quote:
Scripture interprets scripture. Truth cannot be contradictory. Again, you lack contextual support. For each and every verse you quote here there is other scripture to contradict it.
So you think scripture contradicts scripture?!?

Quote:
My view is that it would be a very very small group. I personally don't know nor have I ever met a hyper-Calvinist.
I encourage you to check out the Arminian & Calvinist forum over at CARM.org. Right now there are such uplifting threads as:

"Mourn! God may hate you!"
"Where is the God of Love"
etc.

Some of these guys are hardcore Calvinists, and they all believe God predestines some to heaven and everyone else to eternal torment.

Quote:
We've been over this before - you are asserting a false premise. You have provided no reasonable or logical objection to the alternative view that I provided.
You haven't explained how it is a false premise other than asserting that those who "go to hell", volunteer for it... (not because of God's sovereign will).

Let me ask you this. Does God want people to go to hell?

Quote:
How is evil punished without punishing evil doers? Are you asserting that evil doers will ultimately be annihilated?
Evil-doers are punished "until the last penny is paid" and until they have repented. Ideal punishment is ultimately corrective and restorative ie. chastisement. That is what our human justice system tries to do (albeit not very well and not in all cases). God will do a much better job. God will right every wrong, wipe away every tear, restore all things, and reconcile all. That is true justice.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:45 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension,
but love covers over all wrongs.


Tigetmax, If you want to discuss the context of this verse, please feel free.

But first let me ask you:

1. Do you believe love covers over all wrongs?
2. Do you believe God's love covers over all wrongs?
3. Or do you believe God's love will fail to cover all wrongs, and thus leave some sinners burning in hell for eternity?
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:55 PM
 
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Next verses to look at:

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I can already guess what you think the context is. But here are some key points:

1. We should pray for all men.
2. God will have all men to be saved - this is good and acceptable to God.
3. Christ ransomed himself for all.

Furthermore lets look at:

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the savior of two groups (one is inclusive of the other). God saves:
1. all men
2. especially those that believe.

Let us compare this to Galations:

Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

We should do good to two groups (one is inclusive of the other):
1. all people
2. especially those that believe.
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Old 10-26-2009, 10:41 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,486,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I don't agree and see nothing in scripture and how does the priest know he is forgiven?

Easy. Because he has the authority to given by Jesus. And was sent to do so.

John20
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Or you could look here.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301sbs.asp

Last edited by DNick; 10-26-2009 at 10:50 PM..
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:07 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Pulling the "context" card is simply saying you don't want to discuss the scripture or you don't believe the scripture.
I'm not pulling a "card." I asked for contextual scripture for an obvious reason - one aptly illustrated by your last post. I was trying to avoid a situation where you would then proceed to pull out various scripture from various books and combine them in order to qualify your particular viewpoint. As stated, anyone can do this. The atheists/agnostics do it all the time.

Context is vital. I could go back in this thread and pull various assertions that you've made, out of context, in order to purposely misrepresent the over-arching theme of your various posts.

Are there any books in the Bible espousing the theme of universal salvation?

Barring that, are there any chapters? Paragraphs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You don't believe God desires and wills to save all men?
I've already asserted that I agree that God is desirous that none should parish. I've also explained how this works in conjunction with God's sovereignty and with regard to predestination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Who's to say your "context" is correct? God is love in any context. Or maybe you believe God is love "only in context". In my next post I will present some scripture and we can discuss the context.
As stated, I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Make your case. I promise to give it due consideration.

I, for one, am convinced that scripture interprets scripture. This is logically the only way to achieve coherence. Otherwise, it all becomes a huge free-for-all where we make it up ourselves or trust someone else to make it up- or, some weird combination of the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions. Jesus never spoke of a place of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth either. Provide scripture if you think He did please.
Book of Matthew - 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

Book of Luke - 13:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So you think scripture contradicts scripture?!?
No. Truth cannot be contradictory. Theoretically, we could both be wrong but we cannot both be right.





{Sorry, I'm out of time for tonight - I'll have to get back with you later.}
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:36 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I'm not pulling a "card." I asked for contextual scripture for an obvious reason - one aptly illustrated by your last post. I was trying to avoid a situation where you would then proceed to pull out various scripture from various books and combine them in order to qualify your particular viewpoint. As stated, anyone can do this. The atheists/agnostics do it all the time.

Context is vital. I could go back in this thread and pull various assertions that you've made, out of context, in order to purposely misrepresent the over-arching theme of your various posts.
Yes of course context is vital. I'm glad you are not pulling any "cards". Neither am I. I am simply in pursuit of the truth. Please don't assume I have not studied the context of these passages before. But on the point of context, a statement of fact is still a statement of fact in any context. God is love in any context. God will still be love. Even a statement like in 1 Tim 2:4 God wills/desires all men to be saved -> that is a statement of fact. Does God sometimes NOT desire all men to be saved? NO because then it contradict 1 Tim 2:4 and it would also contradict other verses that say God doesn't change His mind nor His purpose. Now I am well aware of interpretations that say "all men" doesn't really mean "all men", it only means "some men" or it only means "all sorts of men", etc. And I'm also aware of interpretations that turns God's desire into a "weak wish" that is never fulfilled. IMHO neither of these hold water and contradict other scripture.

You claim pulling quotes out of context can allow one to draw any conclusion -> sure, but that is not what I am doing. That type of "quote mining" is easily refuted by looking at the surrounding scripture. So far you have not specifically addressed any context issues, feel free to expand on this. If you could address posts #156 and #155, that could be a starting place.


Quote:
Are there any books in the Bible espousing the theme of universal salvation?

Barring that, are there any chapters? Paragraphs?
Yes, yes, and yes. Actually the whole bible espouses the theme of universal salvation.

Part of the problem is that we have been taught (by the mainstream church, elders, theologians, etc) that eternal torment is true. So the whole bible becomes viewed through that lense. You say you are willing to view this with an open mind, I hope you do. The first thing you will have to do is not assume every passage is inferring something about eternal torment. The scripture you post below is a perfect example - I will get to it in a second. But when you really look at most of the so-called "eternal hellfire" scripture, most of it is only relying on a few verses and/or words that have been mistranslated. You will need an open mind to see that, I won't get into it now... search these forums, there has been plenty of threads on it.

So back to your question: YES the whole bible espouses universal salvation. Actually the whole theme of the bible is this concept of people rebelling against God, people being punished, chastized, judged, and then people turning back to God. This is typified in Israel, but it applies to the whole human race. God has bound all over to disobedience so He may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

Now certain chapters do strongly preach the salvation of all. I would recommend you look at Ephesians 1, Colossians 1, and Romans 5 for starters. Center around these verses:

(From the ampified for clarity):
Eph 1:4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. 5For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [[b]because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]--
...
9Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [c]Him,
10[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.

Now the "us" in verse 9 is the same "us" in verse 4 - the elect. The elect have been chosen to understand the mystery of God's plan. The amazing part here is that this plan is plainly stated in verse 10, yet hardly any believes it. I will tell it to you right now. This is an important bit. Here is God's plan:

to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ

That is the message of universal reconciliation, the salvation of all. But read the whole chapter.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
...
25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—
26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


Again we see reference to the "mystery hidden for ages". This is the same mystery in Ephesians 1: God will unify all things in Christ. And that is precisely what Col 1:16-20 says. God has created all things, and He will also reconcile these same all things back to Himself through Christ. No one is reconciled to God if they are burning in fire for eternity.

Now Romans 5. If you were forced to only keep one chapter of the bible, Romans 5 might be the chapter to keep. It sums up God's plan so well. Specifically note:

Romans 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
...
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justificationall men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
that brings life for

Note: Christ died for the UNGODLY. That is God's love for mankind. So just as all men were condemned by sin, the one act of Christ was justification for all men. The "many" who are made sinners is the same "many" who are made righteous. The "many" is all except Christ, for all have sinned (except Christ). Verse 20 gives us additional assurance. No matter the sin, grace will increase even more to cover that sin. Its good news.

I could go on and on but this post is already too long. Especially check 1 John for God's character and where we learn God IS love and Jesus IS the savior of the world. This is getting a bit long so I will stop here and address the rest of your response in my next post.

I truly hope you take the time to read all this, understanding God's plan of universal salvation takes some effort. I was in your shoes at one time. I believed in eternal hell for 30 years, and then my eyes were opened.

Quote:
Book of Matthew - 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

Book of Luke - 13:28
I will cover these in my next post.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I've already asserted that I agree that God is desirous that none should parish. I've also explained how this works in conjunction with God's sovereignty and with regard to predestination.
I will have to look back at your responses again. But I ask, if you agree that God desires that none perish, why do you think some will perish? Does God fail? Are God's desires not met? I can point you to several scriptures that say God achieves all that He desires, God does as He pleases, etc. What God pleases is to have all men saved.


Quote:
I, for one, am convinced that scripture interprets scripture. This is logically the only way to achieve coherence. Otherwise, it all becomes a huge free-for-all where we make it up ourselves or trust someone else to make it up- or, some weird combination of the two.
...
No. Truth cannot be contradictory. Theoretically, we could both be wrong but we cannot both be right.
I completely agree on the above.


Quote:
Book of Matthew - 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

Book of Luke - 13:28
OK now maybe you will begin to see how preconceived notions can skew our view of scripture. Remember what I stated:

Jesus never spoke of a place of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth...

You responded with the above verses. Yes these verses from Matthew and Luke do indeed refer to people weeping and gnashing their teeth. This could simply be called crying and grinding your teeth in frustration (I have done that myself sometimes). But notice what is conspicuously absent from all those verses you suggested: NONE of them say people weep and gnash their teeth for ETERNITY.

That is what your preconceived ideas assumed about those verses. Many indeed will be weeping and gnashing their teeth when they are cast out of the kingdom. Lets look at Matt 8:12 to see what it really says:

Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Notice that word "subjects"? Those who are weeping and gnashing their teeth are SUBJECTS of the kingdom! That is an amazing concept. This brings the idea of a kingdom with a king, and other rulership, and then subjects that are ruled over. Now we must do further study to understand who is ruling, why they are "ruling", and in fact what the purpose of that "ruling" is. Some of that study has been done on this webpage, it will be too long for this post, but check this out if you are interested:

Merciful Truth - The Chosen Kingdom

Indeed, many are called, but few are chosen. Chosen for what is the question. Its not "chosen" for eternal bliss while the rest are "chosen" for eternal torment, if that's what you are thinking.

Why do you suppose the "subjects" are weeping and gnashing? They are in the darkness. Darkness is the opposite of God because God is light. Darkness symbolizes a lack of understanding and a lack of love. 1 John tell us anyone who does not love is in the darkness. Will they stay in the darkness forever? Eventually there will be no more darkness, because God's light will shine everywhere. God's light will eventually overcome the darkness. That is what light does.

So like I said, Jesus never spoke of a place of eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth. You just thought that He did. Now perhaps you think a verse like Matt 13:42 implies "eternal" because there is mention of "fire":

Matt 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But again there is no specific mention of duration here. Fire is actually used as a symbol throughout the bible: a symbol of judgment, a symbol of purging, refining, purifying, even a symbol of salvation and a symbol of God himself. Fire should not be automatically equated with "eternal hell".

If you do look at this with an open mind, try not to read "eternal hell" into every verse. You may be surprised at the message you see in the bible.

Now I realize there actually are some verses that say "eternal fire/destruction/punishment". This gets into the mistranslation aspect of the greek word 'aion', which many people have a hard time seeing. Its too long to get into here, and has been covered many other places in this forum. This article is a good intro:

Merciful Truth - Eternity

Quote:
{Sorry, I'm out of time for tonight - I'll have to get back with you later.}
Have a good rest, I should be sleeping soon as well.
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