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Old 10-27-2009, 09:39 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I don't agree and see nothing in scripture and how does the priest know he is forgiven?
John 20:19-23

19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

This is the Biblical basis of confessing to priests since the days of early Christianity.


Well, it looks like DNick beat me to it. He also has a very good link. If you have the slightest openess in your heart, you will click on it and read it completely.

Last edited by juj; 10-27-2009 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:29 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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My sense is that you are well meaning and are truly trying to be helpful. However, I'm beginning to feel like I'm on the receiving end of a filibuster. Some how, we need to come to some sort of agreement as to how to narrow the focus and make our exchanges more concise/focused?


Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
1. Do you believe love covers over all wrongs?
Is this supposed to be a 'yes or no' question?

I believe that love covers a multitude of sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
2. Do you believe God's love covers over all wrongs?
Feel free to correct me - I don't believe scripture states that God's love covers over all wrongs. So, my answer would have to be: No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
3. Or do you believe God's love will fail to cover all wrongs, and thus leave some sinners burning in hell for eternity?
I don't believe that eternal punishment points to a failure of God's love but, instead, is a statement of God's justice.

That is what I believe Christ died to save us from - God's justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Next verses to look at:

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I can already guess what you think the context is. But here are some key points:

1. We should pray for all men.
2. God will have all men to be saved - this is good and acceptable to God.
3. Christ ransomed himself for all.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the context of this portion of 1 Timothy concerns instruction on the nature of worship. I don't see how anyone can conclude any relation to universal salvation.

Perhaps you have a cross reference?


Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Furthermore lets look at:

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the savior of two groups (one is inclusive of the other). God saves:
1. all men
2. especially those that believe.

Taken in context with other scripture, I think it reasonable to conclude that the term 'Savior of all men' is in the potential sense. Meaning, if all were to (potentially) come to salvation, all would (potentially) be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Let us compare this to Galations:

Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

We should do good to two groups (one is inclusive of the other):
1. all people
2. especially those that believe.

Agreed. What does this have to do with the concept of universal salvation?


{I'm out of time for tonight}
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:30 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
My sense is that you are well meaning and are truly trying to be helpful. However, I'm beginning to feel like I'm on the receiving end of a filibuster. Some how, we need to come to some sort of agreement as to how to narrow the focus and make our exchanges more concise/focused?
Not sure where you want to go with it, I provided a large summary - universal salvation is a big topic.

Quote:
1. Do you believe love covers over all wrongs?

Is this supposed to be a 'yes or no' question?

I believe that love covers a multitude of sin.
Yes, it is a 'yes or no' question, and the answer is "yes" according to the scripture I posted:

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension,
but love covers over all wrongs.


Quote:
Feel free to correct me - I don't believe scripture states that God's love covers over all wrongs. So, my answer would have to be: No.
Love does cover all wrongs, why would God (who is love) and His love, not cover over all wrongs? Furthermore, Jesus is the savior of the world; He takes away the sins of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world. Jesus said it on the cross: "forgive them for they know not what they do". It was finished then on the cross. Christ died for the sins of mankind, while we were still sinners. That is the greatest love of all (to sacrifice yourself for another), and Christ did it for the whole of mankind so that mankind would made righteous. God's love did cover over all wrongs.

Quote:
I don't believe that eternal punishment points to a failure of God's love but, instead, is a statement of God's justice.

That is what I believe Christ died to save us from - God's justice.
That is an interesting view, but I don't think it is quite right, scripturally or philosophically. If God is just, why would He not give us justice? Justice is not a bad word, nor is it something to be ultimately feared. Justice is a good thing. Every man shall receive according to his deeds. The fire will burn up the works, but the man himself shall be saved, so as through fire (see 1 Cor 3:12-15).

Quote:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but the context of this portion of 1 Timothy concerns instruction on the nature of worship. I don't see how anyone can conclude any relation to universal salvation.

Perhaps you have a cross reference?
Then you are not understanding the significance of 1 Tim 2:4. It is very relevant to universal salvation, as it plainly states God desires/wills to save all men. Other verses are clear that God achieves all He desires and wills... put 2+2 together...


Quote:
Taken in context with other scripture, I think it reasonable to conclude that the term 'Savior of all men' is in the potential sense. Meaning, if all were to (potentially) come to salvation, all would (potentially) be saved.
Savior of all men can be thought of as a title, but if He does not really save all men, how can He rightfully be called the "savior of all men"? 'Potential' implies no one might be saved, it also implies that its not really God that saves, but something else (perhaps its the decision to follow Christ that ultimately saves us? No that's not right - the whole work of salvation is entirely from God)




Quote:
{I'm out of time for tonight}
I understand. I'm not really out to convince you of anything, just defending my previous statements. If you want to understand UR it will take a fair bit of reading... a good place to start is some of the web links I (and others) have posted (mercifultruth.com and tentmaker.org). If you don't want to check'em out, we can chat at your leisure here. But if you think UR is just a weak fantasy and not really biblical, you will need to think again.

Later...
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:16 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Not sure where you want to go with it, I provided a large summary - universal salvation is a big topic.
Yes, it is a challenge to narrow the scope of such a topic. You seemed eager for me to understand your view on all this and I'm certainly willing to try. However, the bombardment of multiple posts, some being quite lengthy and wordy, along with multiple scripture quotes tends to add confusion.

Do you have any well recognized 'Universal' type theologians that you could recommend?

Authors or books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes, it is a 'yes or no' question, and the answer is "yes" according to the scripture I posted:

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension,
but love covers over all wrongs.
Again, look at the context of this scripture verse. The apparent implication is to avoid hatred. We can indeed choose to love and thereby avoid stirring up dissension. If I can bring myself to forgive, I will in essence "cover" the wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Love does cover all wrongs, why would God (who is love) and His love, not cover over all wrongs? Furthermore, Jesus is the savior of the world; He takes away the sins of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world. Jesus said it on the cross: "forgive them for they know not what they do". It was finished then on the cross. Christ died for the sins of mankind, while we were still sinners. That is the greatest love of all (to sacrifice yourself for another), and Christ did it for the whole of mankind so that mankind would made righteous. God's love did cover over all wrongs.
It's hard for me to understand exactly what it is that you understand the word "cover" to mean. I don't like delving in to the semantics but in this case, an explanation of your definition and it's relationship to the verses you've posted may prove helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
That is an interesting view, but I don't think it is quite right, scripturally or philosophically. If God is just, why would He not give us justice? Justice is not a bad word, nor is it something to be ultimately feared. Justice is a good thing. Every man shall receive according to his deeds. The fire will burn up the works, but the man himself shall be saved, so as through fire (see 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Well, my view is certainly well supported in scripture.

I would agree that justice, in our fallen world, is nothing to be feared. Indeed, we all naturally look for and expect to be treated justly and fairly.
However, God's justice is greatly to be feared because of God's perfection and holiness. If God were to count our wrongs against us, who could stand?

I'm not trying to be a wise A$$, but how in the world is it possible to burn up a work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then you are not understanding the significance of 1 Tim 2:4. It is very relevant to universal salvation, as it plainly states God desires/wills to save all men. Other verses are clear that God achieves all He desires and wills... put 2+2 together...
Perhaps. As stated, I'm just a layman.

Taken in scriptural context, the 'wills' of God are as follows:

- God's decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass whatsoever he decrees.

- God's preceptive will, God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the power but not the right to break.

- God's will of disposition, describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what God finds pleasing.

Which 'will' is to be applied to which scripture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Savior of all men can be thought of as a title, but if He does not really save all men, how can He rightfully be called the "savior of all men"? 'Potential' implies no one might be saved, it also implies that its not really God that saves, but something else (perhaps its the decision to follow Christ that ultimately saves us? No that's not right - the whole work of salvation is entirely from God)
There is another alternative: The word 'potential' may point to the theoretical possibility of all men having the potential to be saved. Would God allow Christ's sacrifice to be for naught? No - hence the elect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I understand. I'm not really out to convince you of anything, just defending my previous statements. If you want to understand UR it will take a fair bit of reading... a good place to start is some of the web links I (and others) have posted (mercifultruth.com and tentmaker.org). If you don't want to check'em out, we can chat at your leisure here. But if you think UR is just a weak fantasy and not really biblical, you will need to think again.
Thanks for the references.

I don't see UR as weak fantasy. To be honest, I haven't given it much study.

I responded to the OP due to an apparent misunderstanding of what I understand Calvin's teaching to be. As stated, Calvin didn't teach equal ultimacy.

If your aim is to denounce Calvinism, you may first want to consider learning what it is.
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Yes, it is a challenge to narrow the scope of such a topic. You seemed eager for me to understand your view on all this and I'm certainly willing to try. However, the bombardment of multiple posts, some being quite lengthy and wordy, along with multiple scripture quotes tends to add confusion.

Do you have any well recognized 'Universal' type theologians that you could recommend?

Authors or books?
Sorry for my eagerness. This forum is quite polarized on the issue, check out some of the other threads on universalism if you are interested.

There are quite a few different Authors on the tentmaker.org website, check the Scholar's corner.

Andrew Jukes has some indepth writing on it, but I find it is a bit hard to read.

You may want to check out Charles Slagle, J Preston Eby, Gerry Beauchmin's "Hope Beyone Hell" - all available on the above tentmaker link. There are some books in print you can find at Amazon too (The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald for example), but most of the in-depth writings are also available for free on the internet. Some complete books are available for free.


Quote:
Again, look at the context of this scripture verse. The apparent implication is to avoid hatred. We can indeed choose to love and thereby avoid stirring up dissension. If I can bring myself to forgive, I will in essence "cover" the wrong.

It's hard for me to understand exactly what it is that you understand the word "cover" to mean. I don't like delving in to the semantics but in this case, an explanation of your definition and it's relationship to the verses you've posted may prove helpful.
I believe its simply talking about forgiveness.

Quote:
I would agree that justice, in our fallen world, is nothing to be feared. Indeed, we all naturally look for and expect to be treated justly and fairly.
However, God's justice is greatly to be feared because of God's perfection and holiness. If God were to count our wrongs against us, who could stand?
None. That is why all will come crawling to Christ - all will bow and swear allegiance to Him, right?

Quote:
I'm not trying to be a wise A$$, but how in the world is it possible to burn up a work?
Its talking spiritually. Spiritually removing the carnal nature as fire burns up wood and straw. Read 1 Cor 3:12-15.

Quote:
Taken in scriptural context, the 'wills' of God are as follows:

- God's decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass whatsoever he decrees.

- God's preceptive will, God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the power but not the right to break.

- God's will of disposition, describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what God finds pleasing.

Which 'will' is to be applied to which scripture?
I'm not sure according to your definitions above, But 1 Tim 2:3 says "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Sounds like it is something that God finds pleasing. I simply believe God can acheive that which He desires and finds pleasing.

Quote:
There is another alternative: The word 'potential' may point to the theoretical possibility of all men having the potential to be saved. Would God allow Christ's sacrifice to be for naught? No - hence the elect.
I agree that Christ's sacrifice is not for naught. If Christ is sacrificed for the world, wouldn't anything less than the entire world being saved, be a sacrifice for naught?

Quote:
Thanks for the references.

I don't see UR as weak fantasy. To be honest, I haven't given it much study.
I find this interesting. Some people are overjoyed to discover the possibility of UR. They fear for their loved ones fate and are relieved to find that God is more loving than they could imagine. Maybe you never considered it before.

Quote:
I responded to the OP due to an apparent misunderstanding of what I understand Calvin's teaching to be. As stated, Calvin didn't teach equal ultimacy.

If your aim is to denounce Calvinism, you may first want to consider learning what it is.
I have studied Calvinism for the past year or so, and so far I have not found a satisfactory answer to the problem of "justice" as stated in the OP. Calvinism does state that God predestines sinners to hell for being exactly as God created them: sinners. The "best" answer I have received is that God does this for His glory.

While I have no doubt God could indeed do this, I would have a hard time believing an all-loving God, who tells us to love our enemies, who is love, would do this. And I have a hard time seeing at as justice. Call me crazy, but punishing people for being exactly as you made them just doesn't seem just to me.
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Old 10-31-2009, 07:01 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
None. That is why all will come crawling to Christ - all will bow and swear allegiance to Him, right?
Not quite. As it is written, all will indeed bow. There is a great difference between those truly sorry for their rebellious behavior and those who are only sorry that they've been caught in their rebellious behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sounds like it is something that God finds pleasing. I simply believe God can acheive that which He desires and finds pleasing.
Spot on. In the decretive sense, God can absolutely achieve whatever he desires. Is it God's will that men rebel against him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
If Christ is sacrificed for the world, wouldn't anything less than the entire world being saved, be a sacrifice for naught?
John 3:16 contains a qualifier: "...that whosoever believes..."

Why insert the qualifier if all will be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I find this interesting. Some people are overjoyed to discover the possibility of UR. They fear for their loved ones fate and are relieved to find that God is more loving than they could imagine. Maybe you never considered it before.
I've never considered UR because, from what I currently understand, it flies in the face of all my contextual understanding of scripture. I can certainly understand why pluralism would be very appealing to many. Essentially, it allows everyone to 'have their cake and eat it too.'

I'm willing to learn about UR so that one day, I may be better able to address this in discussion from a more informed perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I have studied Calvinism for the past year or so, and so far I have not found a satisfactory answer to the problem of "justice" as stated in the OP. Calvinism does state that God predestines sinners to hell for being exactly as God created them: sinners. The "best" answer I have received is that God does this for His glory.

While I have no doubt God could indeed do this, I would have a hard time believing an all-loving God, who tells us to love our enemies, who
is love, would do this. And I have a hard time seeing at as justice. Call me crazy, but punishing people for being exactly as you made them just doesn't seem just to me.
As I'm sure you know, John Calvin was one of the reformers. Reformed theology encompasses the entire spectrum of the dynamics of the reformation period and the various debates/controversy surrounding teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Essentially, reformed theology is the history of church theology/orthodox Christianity. To my knowledge, none of the reformers nor any within the Roman Catholic church held to any sort of 'predestination to hell' doctrine.

However, I'll bow to you. Perhaps you can provide some further enlightenment.
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Old 10-31-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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[quote=tigetmax24;11422383]
Quote:
Not quite. As it is written, all will indeed bow. There is a great difference between those truly sorry for their rebellious behavior and those who are only sorry that they've been caught in their rebellious behavior.
Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear(shaba` - to swear an oath of fealty/allegiance).

Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Psa 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.



Doesn't sound to me like anyone will be sorry after Gods judgments are done. From all these passages it is obvious that after God is done judging the earth, that all the inhabitants will have learned righteousness and will bow to him and swear allegiance and will worship him and sing his name for Joy ...



Quote:
Spot on. In the decretive sense, God can absolutely achieve whatever he desires. Is it God's will that men rebel against him?
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Exd 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exd 14:17
And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Isa 57:19
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

Rom 9:17-18
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Jhn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.




Looks like the answer to your question is Yes ...


Quote:
John 3:16 contains a qualifier: "...that whosoever believes..."

Why insert the qualifier if all will be saved?
Only that they finally believe ... And if Every tongue will confess that Christ is lord and learn righteousness through Gods judgments, then every person will be saved at last. And thus shall those who suffer the fiery judgments of God will thereafter finally be happy and swear allegiance to him and bow before him and worship him and sing his name for Joy ...



Quote:
I've never considered UR because, from what I currently understand, it flies in the face of all my contextual understanding of scripture. I can certainly understand why pluralism would be very appealing to many. Essentially, it allows everyone to 'have their cake and eat it too.'
Yes, but that is not what universal reconciliation is about. Though Gods judgments are remedial, in that they teach righteousness to them that are judged, and though all people will sing his name in joy at last and worship him in gladness, that is not to say his judgments are pleasant ... It is better that we should Escape the fire by all means.
Quote:
I'm willing to learn about UR so that one day, I may be better able to address this in discussion from a more informed perspective.
This is good, but dont just learn what those who disagree with it have to say about it or you will not be learning what the message of universal reconciliation is really all about.



Quote:
As I'm sure you know, John Calvin was one of the reformers. Reformed theology encompasses the entire spectrum of the dynamics of the reformation period and the various debates/controversy surrounding teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Essentially, reformed theology is the history of church theology/orthodox Christianity. To my knowledge, none of the reformers nor any within the Roman Catholic church held to any sort of 'predestination to hell' doctrine.
John Calvin did ...

Quote:
However, I'll bow to you. Perhaps you can provide some further enlightenment.
That is a great attitude ... Your humility is to be commended ... God bless brother.
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:42 PM
 
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Hi Tigetmax,

Ironmaw answered most of your questions I think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Spot on. In the decretive sense, God can absolutely achieve whatever he desires. Is it God's will that men rebel against him?
Yes. It is God's will that men rebel against him right now. Is it God's will that men rebel against him forever? No.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ironmaw covered a bunch of other examples of this too.


Quote:
I've never considered UR because, from what I currently understand, it flies in the face of all my contextual understanding of scripture. I can certainly understand why pluralism would be very appealing to many. Essentially, it allows everyone to 'have their cake and eat it too.'
Having "their cake and eating it too" is not what UR is about. UR is just a label anyways, what we are talking about is what scripture says. People reap what they sow. There is consequences for actions. That is never in question. What the question really is, is this: Will God achieve His desire to have all men saved?

Scripture says all will come to Christ, bow before Him, and swear allegiance to Him. God declares it will happen, I believe it.

Quote:
As I'm sure you know, John Calvin was one of the reformers. Reformed theology encompasses the entire spectrum of the dynamics of the reformation period and the various debates/controversy surrounding teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Essentially, reformed theology is the history of church theology/orthodox Christianity. To my knowledge, none of the reformers nor any within the Roman Catholic church held to any sort of 'predestination to hell' doctrine.
Now we are back on the OP. Scripture teaches some people are predestined to be elected. Elected to what? Calvinists assume it is elected to salvation. If that is true, its simple logic. If there are two people in a room, and I pick only one to have lunch with me, then implicitly the other I did not pick to have lunch with me, and he will not be having lunch with me.

Likewise, if God predestines one man to be saved, and doesn't predestine another man to be saved, then there is no other way for that man to be saved, so God has predestined that man to hell by default. Simple logic.

How can you say God predestines someone to heaven, but doesn't predestine anyone to hell? Does a Calvinist suggest there is another way a person can be saved, other than by God predestining them to heaven?

UR teaches what scripture says: all will be saved in their own order, both elect and non-elect.
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Ironmaw answered most of your questions I think...
Ironmaw is entitled to put in his 2 cents. However, I'm curious to see your responses as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes. It is God's will that men rebel against him right now. Is it God's will that men rebel against him forever? No.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Again, the context of this portion of the book of Romans addresses the "grafting" of the gentile believers. Your looking for UR where there is no such mention - absolutely out of context.

"...he may have..."

This implies the situation of "them all" in the sense that all are in need of God's mercy due to their disobedience. No one can be justified (on their own merit) as we are "bound over" to disobedience. Total depravity.

The law is given due to the existence of lawless behavior. If God intends for us to be rebellious, why give us the law?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Having "their cake and eating it too" is not what UR is about. UR is just a label anyways, what we are talking about is what scripture says. People reap what they sow. There is consequences for actions. That is never in question. What the question really is, is this: Will God achieve His desire to have all men saved?

Scripture says all will come to Christ, bow before Him, and swear allegiance to Him. God declares it will happen, I believe it.
And the scripture references to 'sheep' and 'goats' would be explained how? Wouldn't all be be classified as 'sheep' according to your understanding of scripture?

Where does scripture state that all will "swear allegiance to him?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Now we are back on the OP. Scripture teaches some people are predestined to be elected. Elected to what? Calvinists assume it is elected to salvation. If that is true, its simple logic. If there are two people in a room, and I pick only one to have lunch with me, then implicitly the other I did not pick to have lunch with me, and he will not be having lunch with me.
Yes, back to the OP and the false premise which you refuse to see as a false premise. How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).

You keep asserting that this notion is illogical. If that is still your assertion, please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Likewise, if God predestines one man to be saved, and doesn't predestine another man to be saved, then there is no other way for that man to be saved, so God has predestined that man to hell by default. Simple logic.
Yes, you are again going back to what is known as hyper-Calvinsim or equal ultimacy.

Where does John Calvin or any of the reformers infer that such views are scriptural?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
How can you say God predestines someone to heaven, but doesn't predestine anyone to hell? Does a Calvinist suggest there is another way a person can be saved, other than by God predestining them to heaven?
Predestination is a word that appears in scripture. Pretending it isn't there or determining to ignore it, won't make it go away. It seems to me that the reformers have a very logical explanation. Again, I'm willing to bow to you. In your view, what is meant by predestination?

Last edited by tigetmax24; 10-31-2009 at 05:04 PM.. Reason: on their own merit
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Old 10-31-2009, 07:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

Again, the context of this portion of the book of Romans addresses the "grafting" of the gentile believers. Your looking for UR where there is no such mention - absolutely out of context.

"...he may have..."

This implies the situation of "them all" in the sense that all are in need of God's mercy due to their disobedience. No one can be justified (on their own merit) as we are "bound over" to disobedience. Total depravity.

The law is given due to the existence of lawless behavior. If God intends for us to be rebellious, why give us the law?
Romans 11 quite clearly states that God binds people over to disobedience. God is the one who has intended us to be disobedient. That is what you asked, there is the scriptural answer. If you want to believe He "may" have mercy also means He "may not" have mercy, that is your prerogative. I don't believe that is the case.

Romans 11 outlines how Israel has been cut off, but will eventually be grafted in. Romans 11:25-26 tells us "ALL Israel will be saved", but not until the FULLNESS of the gentiles comes in. That seems very URish to me.

Quote:
And the scripture references to 'sheep' and 'goats' would be explained how? Wouldn't all be be classified as 'sheep' according to your understanding of scripture?
No, of course not. There are indeed sheep and goats. Many are called, few are chosen. We are getting into a very broad area of UR here, you would do well to read some of the links and articles I've posted. These topics have been covered as well in these forums in many threads.

If you want to discuss this further, please read this article first as a starting point:
Merciful Truth - Eternity

And no complaining about article length - if you want to understand the truth of the matter it will take some effort on your part.

Quote:
Where does scripture state that all will "swear allegiance to him?"
NASB:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Quote:
Yes, back to the OP and the false premise which you refuse to see as a false premise. How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).
If that is what you believe Calvinism teaches, you are sorely mistaken. Calvinists would never say all are elected. They maintain only the few who are saved are elected. The rest are specifically non-elect, and have been destined to not be saved.

Quote:
You keep asserting that this notion is illogical. If that is still your assertion, please explain.
I can see how with your analogy above, none are predestined to hell. But your analogy above is really what arminian's teach. Effectively salvation is offered to all, but some choose to "dine elsewhere". That is classical Arminian "free will" belief.

Honestly I think you have your terms confused (Arminian vs. Calvinism).


Quote:
Predestination is a word that appears in scripture. Pretending it isn't there or determining to ignore it, won't make it go away. It seems to me that the reformers have a very logical explanation. Again, I'm willing to bow to you. In your view, what is meant by predestination?
I fully agree predestination is in the scriptures. No where have I said I ignore it. I believe God has predestined all of our lots in lives - He is the one who makes some vessels for honor and others for destruction. Yet God wills save all in the end.

Here is what I believe:
1. God is sovereign in all matters.
2. We do not have "free will". See the free will thread for more on that - this is a huge topic.
3. God has predestined some to be elect, and the rest to be non-elect. The elect are true believers who will be made aware of God's plan in this life. They are saved in this life. The rest of the non-elect will not realize this until later. They will go through the lake of fire, which will bring them to Christ.
4. This will eventually lead to a moment when every knee bows and confesses and swears allegiance to God (Isaiah 45:23). Christ will make all alive, and defeat all enemies. The last enemy defeated is death. Then all are made subject to God and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:22-28). God will indeed reconcile the world (Col 1:20).

You haven't really told me what you believe yet. Are you more Arminian "free will" belief or Calvinist - God is sovereign in all - belief?

I know you said before you didn't like my "long" posts, but if you want to understand this you will need to do some digging on your own. If you are happy believing that God allows or causes many people to be tormented for eternity, then you are probably not at a place yet where you will really study this on your own. But if in your heart you cannot understand why God would let billions fry forever, then maybe it is time to dig into this deeper. You could start by going back and looking at my posts #159, and #160 which you sort of glossed over. They covered Ephesians 1, Romans 5, and Col 1:16-20 specifically.
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