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Old 10-21-2009, 07:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?
That's fine if you find it warped but what you find it to be is irrelevant. If a person sees it in scripture then that is what they see.

There are many degrees of Calvinism-there is 3 point; 4 point; 5 point and even hyper Calvinism.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,136,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?
I am not a "Calvinist" but I firmly believe in predestination...because it is scriptural. Where Calvin missed the boat is in ET. God does predestine some to honor and some to dishonor...this is the way God made us and that is why we cannot question Him...it is done for His purposes. If we were all made for honor...how would we ever learn anything...how would God refine and test us if everyone was already honorable? God has mercy on whom He will have mercy in this life...it is done for His purposes. God has bound us all to disobedience...but some he will call and change in this life and some He won't...but in the end He will have mercy on ALL...This ties in perfectly with Universalism.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:40 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Dude, you got me. I've been argueing this point for years. Don't expect an answer, other than "Because God (or the bible) says so". According to their interpretation.

IMHO, Calvinism is absolutely disgusting. Wow, you WANT to worship a God like THAT?

As my 6 year old would say..."ew".
Exactly. But the funny thing is you don't even need scripture to understand and frame the question. Falling on scripture to say it is "justice" is a cop-out.

Rationally, think this through. How can it be justice when God tortures someone eternally for being exactly as He predetermined them to be? It makes no sense, and is completely opposite to the definition of justice.

The question isn't whether God could do that or not (God could if He wanted to - I just don't think He would according to scripture). The queston is: what definition of "justice" are you using that suggests it is justice to torture people for eternity for doing exactly what you made them to be.

It makes no rational or logical sense.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:41 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That's fine if you find it warped but what you find it to be is irrelevant. If a person sees it in scripture then that is what they see.

There are many degrees of Calvinism-there is 3 point; 4 point; 5 point and even hyper Calvinism.

Scripture isn't even the question here Fundy. See my previous post.


What definition of "justice" are you using in where it is "justice" to torture someone for eternity for being exactly as you made them to be?
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:43 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniMae1 View Post
Calvanists?! I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes! Best comic ever!
I think those are the hobbits.

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Old 10-21-2009, 07:49 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,485,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Exactly. But the funny thing is you don't even need scripture to understand and frame the question. Falling on scripture to say it is "justice" is a cop-out.

Rationally, think this through. How can it be justice when God tortures someone eternally for being exactly as He predetermined them to be? It makes no sense, and is completely opposite to the definition of justice.

The question isn't whether God could do that or not (God could if He wanted to - I just don't think He would according to scripture). The queston is: what definition of "justice" are you using that suggests it is justice to torture people for eternity for doing exactly what you made them to be.

It makes no rational or logical sense.
You are arguing an infinite question using a finite, limited, fallen basis of understanding? That's not logical. What your sense of justice is not necessarily God's sense of justice. He is beyond us, He is the potter and we are clay pots.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:50 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,037 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I am not a "Calvinist" but I firmly believe in predestination...because it is scriptural. Where Calvin missed the boat is in ET. God does predestine some to honor and some to dishonor...this is the way God made us and that is why we cannot question Him...it is done for His purposes. If we were all made for honor...how would we ever learn anything...how would God refine and test us if everyone was already honorable? God has mercy on whom He will have mercy in this life...it is done for His purposes. God has bound us all to disobedience...but some he will call and change in this life and some He won't...but in the end He will have mercy on ALL...This ties in perfectly with Universalism.
Agreed.

I also believe we are all predestined/destined/on the one path we were meant to be on, and who are we to question God where it takes us... all of God's motives are good and righteous.

And I'm not questioning God - I'm questioning Calvinists and their definition of "justice". It seems like Calvinists have some things right (ie. God's sovereignty, predestination, etc), but then throw logic out the window and define "justice" as its complete opposite. I suppose they have to in order to justify eternal torment.

I've noticed this with other words to. The word "righteousness" takes on a new definition of "I can do whatever I want and that makes it right", as opposed to "I always do the right thing", which is what righteousness means. And therefore it is "righteous" and "justice" to predestine people to sin and then torture them forever for that sin. Its complete nonsense.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:57 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,485,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Agreed.

I also believe we are all predestined/destined/on the one path we were meant to be on, and who are we to question God where it takes us... all of God's motives are good and righteous.

And I'm not questioning God - I'm questioning Calvinists and their definition of "justice". It seems like Calvinists have some things right (ie. God's sovereignty, predestination, etc), but then throw logic out the window................
As oppose to your definition of justice? just what is justice?
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:58 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You are arguing an infinite question using a finite, limited, fallen basis? That's not logical. What your sense of justice is not necessarily God's sense of justice. He is beyond us, He is the potter and we are clay pots.
I will use a limited finite argument to show your fallacy as best I can.

I have a baby child. I terrorize the child by kicking it in the stomach. The child screams continuously. I tell the child if it keeps screaming, I will kick it in the head. The child screams again, so I kick it in the head.

Is that justice? Not the best analogy, but I don't think anyone would call that justice.

Let me repeat the premise in the OP. You haven't denied the premise, so I'm assuming that is what you believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Essentially:
God predestines a person to sin and then torments, tortures and terrorizes that person for eternity.

And the best answer you can come up with is "my sense of justice is not God's sense of justice"? LOL. That is an understatement. Essentially you are saying God's sense of justice is the complete opposite of man's sense of justice! I guess God didn't really imprint a sense of right and wrong in mankind.

Sure we may be finite beings, but I know a little bit about right and wrong. Torturing someone for eternity for being exactly as you made them can in no sense be described as justice! Use your brain here Fundy. God's ways are HIGHER than man's ways, not LOWER than man's ways.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,136,730 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Agreed.

I also believe we are all predestined/destined/on the one path we were meant to be on, and who are we to question God where it takes us... all of God's motives are good and righteous.

And I'm not questioning God - I'm questioning Calvinists and their definition of "justice". It seems like Calvinists have some things right (ie. God's sovereignty, predestination, etc), but then throw logic out the window and define "justice" as its complete opposite. I suppose they have to in order to justify eternal torment.

I've noticed this with other words to. The word "righteousness" takes on a new definition of "I can do whatever I want and that makes it right", as opposed to "I always do the right thing", which is what righteousness means. And therefore it is "righteous" and "justice" to predestine people to sin and then torture them forever for that sin. Its complete nonsense.
Unfortunately...it's the price, we as Christians, are paying for allowing all the paganistic heathen principles instituted by Rome to perpetuate. Carnality is never pretty and only does harm.
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