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Old 11-07-2009, 10:04 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well do you believe He actively works to keep the predestined in heaven ?.
Because if you do,surely you also have to believe those who are not predestined for heaven are predestined to hell.
Nice try but you are attempting to use logic and reason.
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Calvinism and predestination are satanic corruptions based on ignorant primitive understandings of God that lack any logic or reason . . . and make life one big POINTLESS enactment of foregone conclusions.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Calvinism and predestination are satanic corruptions based on ignorant primitive understandings of God that lack any logic or reason . . . and make life one big POINTLESS enactment of foregone conclusions.

Expand on that...exegetically.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
No it does not seem odd to me that predestination to hell does not appear in scripture. But what does appear in scripture is that some are predestined to be elected, and SOME ARE NOT predestined to be elected. Obviously this point is lost on you.
Here is a quote from you - Post #123:

"God is sovereign. God sovereignly predestines some people to be saved. If He doesn't predestine the rest to be saved as well, then He has implicitly predestined them to hell."

You are also on record as agreeing that the term 'predestination' appears in scripture and must accordingly be recognized.

You have also stated in Post #125:

"You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN."

I ask again, if God predestines people to hell, does it not seem odd that 'predestination to hell' does not appear in scripture?

If I know it doesn't appear, and, you know it doesn't appear, would it not seem reasonable to conclude that Calvin also knew that it doesn't appear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I'm quite fed up with your nonsense tigetmax24. You continue to accuse me ad-hom style. I am very familiar with what Calvin teaches. And you so far have failed to show me where Calvin or scripture says ALL are elected.
I don't believe I ever asserted that "all" were elected. I did state that reprobates have, basically, chosen not to run for election.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
It appears your question was just a setup to try to discredit me.
You appear to be doing quite well at discrediting yourself. All I'm doing is letting the chips fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Have you read the Institutes in their entirety?
No. However, I'm not the one claiming to be the expert on Calvinism. How is it that some 'regular Joe' like me is able to point out your absurd understanding of Calvinism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I will tell you I have read enough to get the point and am continuing to read it as time allows. It follows EXACTLY what Arthur Pink says in Sovereignty of God, but you haven't read that so you wouldn't know.
Yes, you've most definitely read the portions that fit in to your ridiculous predetermined template. I will credit you for that.

Please bare in mind that I don't worship at the alter of Arthur Pink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Now you are misrepresenting me. I did not say that. You asked about predestination of damnation to hell, not election. Scripture does not speak of predestination to hell. Scripture does speak of predestination to election (and therefore also non-election, because if you are not predestined to be elected, then by default you were predestined to be non-elect). Get it straight.
From post #192:

My question to you:

"Which is it - are the unelected simply the unelected or are they those that are "predestined to be damned?"

Don't shilly-shally. Say what you mean and mean what you say."

Your answer to me:

"THEY ARE THE SAME THING if you believe the nonelect are not saved. If some are predestined to be elected, then implicitly the rest are predestined to be non-elected. If you believe the nonelect are not saved, then implicitly the nonelect are predestined to go to hell. Its that simple."

So there you are. According to you, the non-elect are the same as those "predestined to go to hell."

No misrepresentation - get it straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
More ad hom attacks not worth commenting on. Try to stick to the issue and leave out the personal attacks.
I just tell the truth and some people think it amounts to an "ad hom."

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Wow more ad hom attacks and some vague hand-waving to "context", as if that changes the plain meaning of John Calvin's statements. I quote John Calvin again:

"Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children."

Does that really sound like Calvin is suggesting God wishes none perish? On the contrary, Calvin is saying God is pleased to have some perish.

"I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree."

Here we see that Calvin asserts God has decreed the fall of Adam. If you read it through, you will see Calvin also affirms that God has ordained all sins. God is indeed the first cause of why there is sin. The reason why men sin is because God decreed it, according to Calvin. Read the whole chapter if you want the full context.
Yes, I've read the "whole chapter." You're taking the "whole chapter" out of context because there is another "whole chapter" that militates against your ridiculously and absurdly warped view of Calvinism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Answer me this: Why do the wicked have evil desires in the first place?
Why does anyone have evil desires? Systematic understanding of scripture reveals what Calvin asserts as total depravity. Evil is in our nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Are you suggesting God didn't want them to be wicked?
God instructed Adam and Eve to stay away from the forbidden fruit. They disobeyed and you infer that God is to be blamed or that God intended for them to disobey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Calvin (and scripture) asserts God created the wicked.
God created the whole universe - basically, everything that is - this would also include the wicked. The question is: Does God cause the wicked to be wicked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
They are only wicked because God created them that way. God creates the wicked, the wicked have evil desires, and you wish to tell me God did not cause them to be wicked? Unbelievable.
"They are only wicked because God created them that way."

You infer that God caused the wicked to do wicked things. This is supported where in scripture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This discussion is now officially pointless, as you continue to ignore plain statements of Calvin, plain scripture, and plain logic and reason.
Partially true. I am ignoring your out of context statements of Calvin and out of context scripture posts. As for logic and reason - well, if I were to state the truth here you would just chalk it up as another "ad hom."

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Perhaps another Calvinist who is more aware of what Calvin teaches will step up to the plate. Calvin does not teach that God desires all be saved (He contradicts scripture here).
Yes, perhaps someone else will step up. I look forward to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Have a nice day Tigetmax.
Thanks - you too lego.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:37 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well do you believe He actively works to keep the predestined (for?) in heaven ?.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Because if you do,surely you also have to believe those who are not predestined for heaven are predestined to hell.
Why?
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:15 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,187 posts, read 19,981,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Yes.



Why?
I would have thought the answer to your "Why ? would be obvious.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:45 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I would have thought the answer to your "Why ? would be obvious.
Not for someone who is brainwashed through indoctrinated programming and are thus incapable of perceiving the contradictions of their own belief system ...
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:02 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Why does anyone have evil desires? Systematic understanding of scripture reveals what Calvin asserts as total depravity. Evil is in our nature.
Quick questions. Why is evil in our nature? Why are we totally depraved? Who gave us this nature?

Gotta run for now...
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:47 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,187 posts, read 19,981,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Not for someone who is brainwashed through indoctrinated programming and are thus incapable of perceiving the contradictions of their own belief system ...
I Agree , surely it's that obvious, and not see it must mean you are either brainwashed or refusing to see it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Quick questions. Why is evil in our nature?
To my knowledge, our nature is inherited. Once Adam and Eve became aware of the knowledge of good and evil (the fall), evil became natural for all forthcoming descendants, with the exception of Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Why are we totally depraved?
Total Depravity is the historic common parlance. I prefer the term 'radical corruption.' As stated, I agree with the notion that our corrupt nature is inherited from the time of the fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Who gave us this nature?
I suppose that we could blame Adam and Eve but, it seems to me, and speaking for myself only, it seems to me that any human in their position would eventually have probably done the same.

One thing is for sure, we can't blame God when we choose to do what God specifically instructs us not to do.
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