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Old 11-08-2009, 12:42 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I would have thought the answer to your "Why ? would be obvious.
Perhaps I'm just not as sharp as I should be.

As I've repeatedly explained to lego, the 'because of X, then Y' approach to this question equates to a false premise.

I've also repeatedly stated the alternative to this.

lego asserts that this alternative approach lacks logic but refuses to explain how or why.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:58 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Perhaps I'm just not as sharp as I should be.

As I've repeatedly explained to lego, the 'because of X, then Y' approach to this question equates to a false premise.

I've also repeatedly stated the alternative to this.

lego asserts that this alternative approach lacks logic but refuses to explain how or why.
It just requires an open mind and common sense .
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:59 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post


"God is sovereign. God sovereignly predestines some people to be saved. If He doesn't predestine the rest to be saved as well, then He has implicitly predestined them to hell."

You are also on record as agreeing that the term 'predestination' appears in scripture and must accordingly be recognized.

You have also stated in Post #125:

"You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN."

I ask again, if God predestines people to hell, does it not seem odd that 'predestination to hell' does not appear in scripture?

If I know it doesn't appear, and, you know it doesn't appear, would it not seem reasonable to conclude that Calvin also knew that it doesn't appear?
You are arguing in circles ...

First of all the reason why you don't find "predestined to hell" in scripture is because hell is a myth. Just because we don't see "predestinated to hell" in scripture in those exact words, doesn't mean that the bible doesn't talk about people being predestined to destruction.



Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



And it doesn't mean that the bible doesn't implicitly state that God chooses whom he will have mercy on and also whom he will harden ...



Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



Also we have the implicit statement of Gods election to prefer some over others, even before they are born ...



Rom 9:13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.




If we were left with only these verses we would be left to no other understanding of God than that he indeed has predestined some to salvation and others to no salvation. But ... We also have these words as well ...



Isa 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.




The question is how do we reconcile the fact that God hardens some and fits them to destruction ... Yet he will have all to be saved?

The answer is in proper exegetical understanding. The many are called to salvation by "him that calleth", but only a few are chosen to rule with Christ. And those who God hardens who are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction shall serve the vessels of honor fitted to mercy in the day of the lord and in the kingdom of Heaven.

And so it is written of them that are fitted to destruction ...



1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



In this way it shall be fulfilled the prophecy of our lord and savior ...



Rev 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.




And so shall all turn to God and repent and be saved in that final day, and all shall worship him.



Psa 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Selah ...
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It just requires an open mind and common sense .

Agreed.

Is your mind open?
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:19 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Agreed.

Is your mind open?
Well it's yours what is in question, believing the lost not being predestined to hell ,while those who set for heaven are is a total contradiction in itself .

I can't see how you cannot see this is what you are saying.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:10 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Here is a quote from you - Post #123:

"God is sovereign. God sovereignly predestines some people to be saved. If He doesn't predestine the rest to be saved as well, then He has implicitly predestined them to hell."

You are also on record as agreeing that the term 'predestination' appears in scripture and must accordingly be recognized.

You have also stated in Post #125:

"You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN."

I ask again, if God predestines people to hell, does it not seem odd that 'predestination to hell' does not appear in scripture?
I say again: scripture does not speak of predestination to hell. But it does speak of predestination to be elect or non-elect.

Quote:
If I know it doesn't appear, and, you know it doesn't appear, would it not seem reasonable to conclude that Calvin also knew that it doesn't appear?
It seems you misunderstood my point or are (perhaps unknowingly) twisting my words. Calvin knows that scripture speaks of predestination to being elect or non-elect. He also believes the nonelect are not saved, therefore he logically concludes people are predestined to hell (because people are predestined to be non-elect). That is simple logic, which so far you have not grasped.

Quote:
I don't believe I ever asserted that "all" were elected. I did state that reprobates have, basically, chosen not to run for election.
You implied that all are elected in your analogy in post #169, and didn't deny it when I commented on it later. You said:

How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).

If you wish to change your analogy then please let me know. Otherwise your analogy is asserting all are elected, but some refuse God's election (as if that were possible).


Quote:
No. However, I'm not the one claiming to be the expert on Calvinism. How is it that some 'regular Joe' like me is able to point out your absurd understanding of Calvinism?
I'm not claiming to be an expert on Calvinism. But I've read my fair share on it.

More ad hom. So far you have subtly jabbed that I "worship at the alter of Pink" and now claiming my argument is absurd, without giving any evidence its wrong. Can you actually address the argument and what Calvin said without the ad hom please? How about some evidence from Calvin supporting what you say? You can't simply bash what I say without providing counter evidence.

Example: I say "Calvin said ..."

Instead of you saying this: No that's wrong and absurd (no evidence given); you take everything out of context (no evidence given); I don't worship at the altar of some irrelevant person (subtle ad hom).

When instead you could say: No I believe you are mistaken because you have to take this other statement that Calvin made into account. Let me show you some evidence of what he said.

But so far you have not done that.

Quote:
From post #192:

My question to you:

"Which is it - are the unelected simply the unelected or are they those that are "predestined to be damned?"

Don't shilly-shally. Say what you mean and mean what you say."

Your answer to me:

"THEY ARE THE SAME THING if you believe the nonelect are not saved. If some are predestined to be elected, then implicitly the rest are predestined to be non-elected. If you believe the nonelect are not saved, then implicitly the nonelect are predestined to go to hell. Its that simple."

So there you are. According to you, the non-elect are the same as those "predestined to go to hell."

No misrepresentation - get it straight.
There you go misrepresenting what I said again! Read the quote in purple above, and compare it to what you wrote. I DID NOT say the non-elect are the same as "predestined to go to hell" period. You forgot the qualifier: if you believe the nonelect are not saved.

Let me explain it again:

Scripture shows some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be nonelect. Calvin & I agree here.

Scripture does not say the nonelect are not saved. This is where Calvin & I disagree. But if you do believe the nonelect are not saved, then you must also believe the nonelect are predestined to hell, because scripture shows us they were predestined to be nonelect. That is simple logic.


Quote:
God created the whole universe - basically, everything that is - this would also include the wicked. The question is: Does God cause the wicked to be wicked?

"They are only wicked because God created them that way."

You infer that God caused the wicked to do wicked things. This is supported where in scripture?
God created the wicked. They were wicked when He created them - they were created that way. That means God intended the wicked - wait for it - TO BE WICKED! Shocking I know. So the first cause for the wicked to do wicked things is GOD because God created them. There are plenty of scripture that say this, but here is a plain one:

Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

God, on purpose, made the wicked for the day of evil.

Last edited by legoman; 11-08-2009 at 10:30 PM..
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:22 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
As I've repeatedly explained to lego, the 'because of X, then Y' approach to this question equates to a false premise.

I've also repeatedly stated the alternative to this.

lego asserts that this alternative approach lacks logic but refuses to explain how or why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well it's yours what is in question, believing the lost not being predestined to hell ,while those who set for heaven are is a total contradiction in itself .

I can't see how you cannot see this is what you are saying.
Exactly. It is a logical contradiction to say some are predestined to heaven, but the rest are not predestined to anything.


TigetMax here is the logical proof you need to understand:

We can take all people who ever existed, and put them in one of two groups, which we will call group "A" and group "not-A". "A" is the opposite of "not-A". These two groups are exclusive. If you are in one group, you can't also be in the other group.

Now scripture says some are predestined to "A". Implicitly we know that everyone else is "not-A". Since they were not predestined to be in "A", they are in "not-A"; Since those in "A" were predestined to be in "A", we can also say those in "not-A" were predestined to be "not-A", since the two groups are exclusive.

Are you with me so far? Replace "A" with "elect" and you will see I have just proven that scripture says some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be non-elect. If you disagree with this, please explain logically how it can be any different.

This is a scriptural truth: all people are predestined to be in one of only two groups - elect or non-elect.

Now we must determine what happens with the non-elect. TigetMax, you believe the non-elect are not saved. If one holds to this belief, logically you can only conclude that God predestines people to be not saved, because He predestines people to be non-elect.

Last edited by legoman; 11-08-2009 at 09:48 PM..
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:48 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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TigetMax,

In post #158 you said:

I've already asserted that I agree that God is desirous that none should parish. I've also explained how this works in conjunction with God's sovereignty and with regard to predestination.

Can you show me where Calvin himself says God really desires that none perish?

I have already shown you plain statements of Calvin that say God does not desire to save all men.

It seems Calvin does not agree with your view of Calvinism.
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:00 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Exactly. It is a logical contradiction to say some are predestined to heaven, but the rest are not predestined to anything.


TigetMax here is the logical proof you need to understand:

We can take all people who ever existed, and put them in one of two groups, which we will call group "A" and group "not-A". "A" is the opposite of "not-A". These two groups are exclusive. If you are in one group, you can't also be in the other group.

Now scripture says some are predestined to "A". Implicitly we know that everyone else is "not-A". Since they were not predestined to be in "A", they are in "not-A"; Since those in "A" were predestined to be in "A", we can also say those in "not-A" were predestined to be "not-A", since the two groups are exclusive.

Are you with me so far? Replace "A" with "elect" and you will see I have just proven that scripture says some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be non-elect. If you disagree with this, please explain logically how it can be any different.

This is a scriptural truth: all people are predestined to be in one of only two groups - elect or non-elect.

Now we must determine what happens with the non-elect. TigetMax, you believe the non-elect are not saved. If one holds to this belief, logically you can only conclude that God predestines people to be not saved, because He predestines people to be non-elect.
Tigetmax, I will now show you (again) why your alternative view is illogical.

Here was your alternative view:
How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).

So if both people are elected, then they have both been predestined to be elected, because we know election is by predestination. Therefore it is not possible that one can refuse to be elected (because its predestined - one cannot change what has been predestined). Therefore your view is illogical because it is inherently contradictory. It contradicts itself.

Now if you change your view to say only the one is elected, then we are back to the view that I gave originally, where only some are predestined to be elected and the rest are predestined to be non-elected. And if you believe the nonelect are not saved, then logically you can conclude they were predestined to be unsaved. This is precisely what Calvin has said in the many quotes I gave which you've simply ignored.
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:03 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
To my knowledge, our nature is inherited. Once Adam and Eve became aware of the knowledge of good and evil (the fall), evil became natural for all forthcoming descendants, with the exception of Jesus.

Total Depravity is the historic common parlance. I prefer the term 'radical corruption.' As stated, I agree with the notion that our corrupt nature is inherited from the time of the fall.

I suppose that we could blame Adam and Eve but, it seems to me, and speaking for myself only, it seems to me that any human in their position would eventually have probably done the same.

One thing is for sure, we can't blame God when we choose to do what God specifically instructs us not to do.
So are you saying God is not responsible for our total depravity, and God did not want or intend for us to be totally depraved?
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