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Old 11-09-2009, 06:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,398,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So are you saying God is not responsible for our total depravity, and...
As far as my systematic understanding of scripture is concerned, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God did not want or intend for us to be totally depraved?
Again, as far as I know, yes. This is in accord with the reformed view.

However, don't misunderstand, God, in his sovereignty, could naturally have prevented the fall if he had so chosen.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:34 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,398,258 times
Reputation: 106
Lego,

You've again covered a lot of ground. Believe me, I DO most certainly wish to respond to all of your assertions. Hopefully, I will get an opportunity to do so before it all becomes OBE.

We've obviously been 'circular' on this elect/non-elect issue for some time. Please allow me to attempt a different tact in order to perhaps more clearly establish why it is that the same rules do not apply to both the converted (saved) and the reprobate (condemned).

Do you agree with the doctrine of the Trinity?

If not, how about that Jesus is "One with the Father?"
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:45 AM
 
Location: US
26,325 posts, read 13,956,226 times
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Default Calvinism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well there are different degrees of Calvinism so you will get conflicting viewpoints. I believe that God predestines those He saves to do His bidding on this planet in His name thus giving Him the glory and gives the rest of humanity every opportunity through His creation, our conscience etc....to know Him and to repent.
It is not us that repents. God grants repentance. Causal Effect.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:50 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,457,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It is not us that repents. God grants repentance. Causal Effect.
I agree but the bible is still clear that we have to repent also.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:42 AM
 
Location: US
26,325 posts, read 13,956,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
You do believe that God knows the end from the beginning don't you?
Brother. It does not say He KNOWS the end from the beginning, it says He DECLARES the end from the beginning. big difference in an arguement. beware of what you say and how you say it. And the rest of that verse say, and things from ancient times not done.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:47 AM
 
Location: US
26,325 posts, read 13,956,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I agree but the bible is still clear that we have to repent also.
but, if God does not grant us repentance, we cannot repent. remember we are dead in Sin and can do nothing meriting his favor. In other words He grants to us the spirit of repentance, we do not take repentnace because it is not in our nature to repent, so, if it is not in our nature to repent, then how do we repent, it is God who causes us to repent. Scripture says it, i believe it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,263 posts, read 20,007,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Brother. It does not say He KNOWS the end from the beginning, it says He DECLARES the end from the beginning. big difference in an arguement. beware of what you say and how you say it. And the rest of that verse say, and things from ancient times not done.
He is the beginning and the end . He's the Alpha and Omega .
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:55 AM
 
Location: US
26,325 posts, read 13,956,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Lego,

You've again covered a lot of ground. Believe me, I DO most certainly wish to respond to all of your assertions. Hopefully, I will get an opportunity to do so before it all becomes OBE.

We've obviously been 'circular' on this elect/non-elect issue for some time. Please allow me to attempt a different tact in order to perhaps more clearly establish why it is that the same rules do not apply to both the converted (saved) and the reprobate (condemned).

Do you agree with the doctrine of the Trinity?

If not, how about that Jesus is "One with the Father?"
If it states in scripture that peole are elected to salvation, there is a reason that they use the world Elect, also Chosen and find out what predestined means. Now, if you flip the script there are those that are not elected or chosen and are predestined to condemnation. It is in black and white in the Bible. And Peter says that the Scriptures are not open to individual interpretations. And Scriptures do not include the New Testament, because what Scriptures were the Apostles referring to when they said that the scriptures are good for correcting, admonishing, edifying, etc.? he points us to the OT because the NT is a compilation of LETTERS written to the churches of the time and much reference was made back to the OT.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:55 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,457,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
but, if God does not grant us repentance, we cannot repent. remember we are dead in Sin and can do nothing meriting his favor. In other words He grants to us the spirit of repentance, we do not take repentnace because it is not in our nature to repent, so, if it is not in our nature to repent, then how do we repent, it is God who causes us to repent. Scripture says it, i believe it.
I agree with all of that but you asked the million dollar question, how? I don't know. God grants us faith and when called we come and yet what of the ones that don't come because they were never called to begin with yet God still doesn't hold them blameless and rightfully so but you must agree that is beyond our understanding right now but God still sees it as our choice too to condemn us without calling us.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: US
26,325 posts, read 13,956,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Yes He did harden Pharaoh's heart but there is no statement telling us that as a direct result of Pharaoh's heart being hardened he was destined to an eternity of torment.
What happens to those that rebel against God? Or to those that do not have Faith in Him?
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