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Old 11-11-2009, 09:12 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Unfortunately...it's the price, we as Christians, are paying for allowing all the paganistic heathen principles instituted by Rome to perpetuate. Carnality is never pretty and only does harm.
It did not come from Paganistic veiws.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
What happens to those that rebel against God? Or to those that do not have Faith in Him?
He draws them all to Himself , "If i be lifted up i will draw all men to myself"
First of all the quote on your last post is not mine , i never wrote that.

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2 verse 4

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 4 verse 9-11.


I am sure there are plenty of posters on here who will take up the mantle and debate this with you .



I finding it tedious to be honest to debate unless whoever you are debating is open.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:57 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
God did not want or intend for us to be totally depraved?
Again, as far as I know, yes. This is in accord with the reformed view.

However, don't misunderstand, God, in his sovereignty, could naturally have prevented the fall if he had so chosen.
Then I believe you are in disagreement with the reformed community and all of the reformed authors I've ever read. That is the core of the reformed view - God is sovereign, God does what He pleases. The only reason the fall happened is because God decreed/ordained/planned it to happen that way. To suggest otherwise, is to suggest God made a mistake.

Consider your own qualifer statement above, that God could have prevented the fall if He had so chosen... then why didn't He? Because He did not want to prevent the fall. No one was twisting God's arm. God does as He pleases. The fall happened because God intended it.

There can be no doubt that God intended sin to enter the world because scripture proclaims that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was not Plan B. Without sin, Jesus could not enter and become the savior of the world, thus sin was a necessary evil to show God's love and mercy.


PS I'm not interested in discussing/debating the trinity here, especially since it would be off-topic in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the trinity if you wish.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:17 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,449,783 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then I believe you are in disagreement with the reformed community and all of the reformed authors I've ever read. That is the core of the reformed view - God is sovereign, God does what He pleases. The only reason the fall happened is because God decreed/ordained/planned it to happen that way. To suggest otherwise, is to suggest God made a mistake.

Consider your own qualifer statement above, that God could have prevented the fall if He had so chosen... then why didn't He? Because He did not want to prevent the fall. No one was twisting God's arm. God does as He pleases. The fall happened because God intended it.

There can be no doubt that God intended sin to enter the world because scripture proclaims that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was not Plan B. Without sin, Jesus could not enter and become the savior of the world, thus sin was a necessary evil to show God's love and mercy.


PS I'm not interested in discussing/debating the trinity here, especially since it would be off-topic in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the trinity if you wish.
I am confused. How is does Tigetmax comments differ from other reformers?
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:20 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Legoman I find you universalists to not only be illogical but emotionally abusive, love to deconstruct and then reconstruct what others say building strawmans, that said. Once again you built a strawman and your analogy is ridiculous.

I believe God predestines those who He saves-that is Calvinism predestination. God doesn't make people sin, that is not in scripture but your strawman.
but, it is.

Isaiah 45:7 very clearly states "I form the light and create the darkness. I make good and create evil. I the LORD do all these things."

Lamentations 3:37-39 - "Who can speak and have it happen if the LORD has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil comes?"

1 Kings 22:20-23 - "And the LORD said, 'Who will lure Ahab into attacking Ramoth...finally, a spirit came forward and said, I will lure him.' By what means? the LORD asked. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," he said. "You will succeed in luring him," said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these propheets...the LORD has decreed disaster for you." (cf. Ezekiel 14:9

Acts 4:28 - "They [the apostate Jews and Romans] did what your power and will predestined should happen, [crucifying the very Son of God]."

Romans 9:19 - "One of you will say to [one another], '[If God causes everything,] Then why does God find fault? For who resists his [sovereign] will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God...Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay, some pottery for noble use and some for common use?"

Romans 9, “Jacob I loved but Esau I have hated, even before any have done good or bad.”

Also, Joseph said to his brothers, "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God is love. Love does not purpose or allow people to be tormented for eternity. Love does not even create an eternal torture chamber. According to most of mainstream Christianity, either:

1. God is not able to save all people
OR
2. God is not willing to save all people

Neither of these is consistent with an all-powerful all-loving God who is the essence of love.


Most Calvinist's I've talked to say that God predestines some to heaven, and the rest are predestined to hell.

Logically, if there is a hell, they are right.

No false premise. You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN.

Yes it is illogical because the only reason people are saved is by God's sovereign will, and the only reason people are NOT saved is also because of God's sovereign will. If you claim people are not saved because they volunteered to go to hell, then you have suddenly overruled God's sovereignty, so now God is no longer sovereign.

Grace and mercy are not in opposition to justice. God's love, grace, mercy, justice, and judgement are all working together to achieve God's will. God is not composed of contradictory attributes nor are His actions contradictory.
2000 men are in prison under the death penalty for the crime of murder.
the Law states that such a crime is deserveing of death.
they were proven guilty although some may not feel guilty, that does not change the fact that they are guilty.
The Govenor walks in and pardons 500 of these inmates and gives them a second chance.
The remaining 1500 complain that this is not fair and that it is unjust.
The Govenor asks what they are guilty of and they respond with "murder", he then asks what the Law states are the consequences of such a crime.
They respond "Death".
So, you agree that you committed the crime of murder and that the law gives you death?
they respond "yes".
Then, you are being treated justly.
It is my RIGHT to be merciful and pardon some if i so choose. and not give them what they deserve.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I agree with all of that but you asked the million dollar question, how? I don't know. God grants us faith and when called we come and yet what of the ones that don't come because they were never called to begin with yet God still doesn't hold them blameless and rightfully so but you must agree that is beyond our understanding right now but God still sees it as our choice too to condemn us without calling us.
One cannot get past the black and white of it. God has chosen some for Salvation. He then calls them at appointed times. And He also chooses not to call others and leave them in their Sins. They have already been fitted for destruction. So says scripture. to say one has free will to accept or reject is to say that we are able to thwart Gods will. Read the letter to the Romans in its entirety. Paul builds a good arguement for Predestination. Ask who he is talking to, what is he saying and why.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:51 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,449,783 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
One cannot get past the black and white of it. God has chosen some for Salvation. He then calls them at appointed times. And He also chooses not to call others and leave them in their Sins. They have already been fitted for destruction. So says scripture. to say one has free will to accept or reject is to say that we are able to thwart Gods will. Read the letter to the Romans in its entirety. Paul builds a good arguement for Predestination. Ask who he is talking to, what is he saying and why.
I know Richard but I grew up an arminian and I have to say even though I side with the Calvinistic appraoch interpreting scripture, I can see some valid arminian points dealing with salvation using scripture.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
He draws them all to Himself , "If i be lifted up i will draw all men to myself"
First of all the quote on your last post is not mine , i never wrote that.

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2 verse 4

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 4 verse 9-11.


I am sure there are plenty of posters on here who will take up the mantle and debate this with you .



I finding it tedious to be honest to debate unless whoever you are debating is open.
Does He really mean ALL. All the world cannot be the ELECT of God. Just as the reference to "The World Of Doctors" does not mean everyone in the world is a doctor. The Gospel is meant for the All the Elect not All Humanity. when we read all we immeadiately think every bit. but, it cannot mean that because it would conflict with other scriptures.
This Doctrine of free will did not originate with Arminius as the Doctrine of Predestination did not originate with Calvin. Free Will originated with Palagius in the early church and was rejected as a heresy. The doctrine of Predestination originated with St. Augustine in order to rebut the heresy being spread by Palagius. and the doctrine of predestination was taught in the majority with force up until about 200 years ago, now the doctrine of free will has taken the Christian church by storm globaly and the doctrine of predestination is being considered the heresy. but to this i refer you to the letters of the New Testament where it says that in the end times many will follow the doctrine of demons and unsound doctrine. The Truth is the Truth and that is what i want, not man's truth.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:07 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then I believe you are in disagreement with the reformed community and all of the reformed authors I've ever read. That is the core of the reformed view - God is sovereign, God does what He pleases. The only reason the fall happened is because God decreed/ordained/planned it to happen that way. To suggest otherwise, is to suggest God made a mistake.

Consider your own qualifer statement above, that God could have prevented the fall if He had so chosen... then why didn't He? Because He did not want to prevent the fall. No one was twisting God's arm. God does as He pleases. The fall happened because God intended it.

There can be no doubt that God intended sin to enter the world because scripture proclaims that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was not Plan B. Without sin, Jesus could not enter and become the savior of the world, thus sin was a necessary evil to show God's love and mercy.


PS I'm not interested in discussing/debating the trinity here, especially since it would be off-topic in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the trinity if you wish.
I agree with your statement. in fact, i believe everything was decreed by God, if He say nothing exists without Him, then nothing means everything.
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