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Old 11-11-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well from my standpoint of "double predestination" it is how it is worded. Most Christians believe there is a hell and God is omniscient and He knew those who will go to hell before He created them but created them anyway so in a way God "predestined" people to hell Even though God created them knowing they will go to hell doesn't mean God predestined them there, those people had every opportunity to repent and put their trust in Christ, people still had a choice and rejected God. Human beings and human beings alone bare the sole responsibility of their damned fate.
the reason God knows everything is because He decreed it to be such. not because He looked down the corridor of time and saw it...that would negate His omniscience and say that there was sometning He did not know therefore had to learn.....think about it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
OK your Calvinist irrationality is showing again.

Why would God create the whole human race in a state somehow "deserving" to be tortured for eternity? How can you not see that God is responsible for this state, not man?

You think if God was "fair", we would all go to "hell"!??! Sorry, this is completely irrational. If that was really the case, God wouldn't have even bothered creating us in the first place. Why create something so awful that it simply has to be tortured forever. And then claim to call it justice, while simultaneously claiming you are the most loving being in the universe?!? Its complete nonsense. Basically you are saying God can redefine words to mean the opposite of what we understand them to mean. Like Sven said, why bother giving us the bible then, why bother giving us language, if its all meaningless.

Now comes the need for scripture. Show me in scripture where it says we all deserve an eternal hell of torture. So far no one has been able to show me that scripture.
Why create this whole damned mess in the first place?
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
OK your Calvinist irrationality is showing again.

Why would God create the whole human race in a state somehow "deserving" to be tortured for eternity? How can you not see that God is responsible for this state, not man?

You think if God was "fair", we would all go to "hell"!??! Sorry, this is completely irrational. If that was really the case, God wouldn't have even bothered creating us in the first place. Why create something so awful that it simply has to be tortured forever. And then claim to call it justice, while simultaneously claiming you are the most loving being in the universe?!? Its complete nonsense. Basically you are saying God can redefine words to mean the opposite of what we understand them to mean. Like Sven said, why bother giving us the bible then, why bother giving us language, if its all meaningless.

Now comes the need for scripture. Show me in scripture where it says we all deserve an eternal hell of torture. So far no one has been able to show me that scripture.
www.bloomingtonrpchurch.org/refdocpre/predest.pdf
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,192 posts, read 19,981,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You cannot create god in your own image and expect to be glorifying Him. You must be conformed to His image. read the old testament and you will be horrified at what God does...and He is the same today as yesterday as tommorow.
Actually the scripture says Jesus Christ is the Same yesterday,Today and forever .

Jesus also said if you have seen me , you have seen the Father .

Hebrews 1 verse 3 says

The Son(Jesus) is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being.

Now show us how God's son Jesus Christ went around doing anything remotely like what you read of in the Old Testament

The scriptures record He went around doing good.

Acts 10 verse 38

38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:22 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You see your "rationality" IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!!!!!!!!!!! I can't use reason only scripture and reason from scripture using a systematic theology. Adam and Eve reasoned themselves right out of the garden.

If I see it in scripture I believe it but if I come across something in scripture that doesn't make sense to me then I look all through scripture help me "rationalize" it and if I still can't make heads or tails of it, then I don't fill in the blanks and say, what if, why would. I would leave it at that and not put my authority over God's
Calm down......you are argueing with humanists.....
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Trust me I get into many debates with Calvinists as well because scripture clearly shows that man does have a choice. How does God's sovereignty and man's free will work together for salvation? I have not a clue but it is scriptural and I believe it works just don't know how but I have faith in God that it is good and just.
If man had a choice then he always had a choice......then it would be illogical for Christ to atone for our Sins because if we make the right choice then we can also choose to do righteousness and not evil so if we have this ability then we could save ourselves.....our total inability disables us from choosing Righteousness outside of Christ and only God can bring us to Christ and those are the ones He has chosen the rest He has left unchosen. Scripture is written in many places from man's viewpoint and in many places from God's viewpoint.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:43 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I agree with your statement. in fact, i believe everything was decreed by God, if He say nothing exists without Him, then nothing means everything.
Thankyou Richard, it appears you have a good understanding of the reformed/Calvinist view.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am confused. How is does Tigetmax comments differ from other reformers?
Compare Tigetmax's posts with Richard1965's. From the few posts I have seen of Richard1965, it appears he represents the reformed/Calvinist view well. Namely:

- God has decreed everything that will happen
- God has even ordained and decreed sin
- God actually intended for the fall to happen; He didn't just grudgingly allow it
- God has elected some for salvation, and the rest for damnation to eternal hell
- effectively God has predestined who will be saved and who will be tormented for eternity
- this is somehow "just" because everyone has sinned

Yet this resolves down to the following problem:

God decrees people to be sinners and then torments them for eternity for being exactly as He created them. That is not justice - its injustice.

This is what my OP was directed at.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Never like the term God does as He pleases , i believe all what He does is for a purpose and that is His good pleasure , and i believe we are His good pleasure.
What purpose would it serve God just to go around doing what the hell He wants ?

Because He is God. He does as He pleases.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:00 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
2000 men are in prison under the death penalty for the crime of murder.
the Law states that such a crime is deserveing of death.
they were proven guilty although some may not feel guilty, that does not change the fact that they are guilty.
The Govenor walks in and pardons 500 of these inmates and gives them a second chance.
The remaining 1500 complain that this is not fair and that it is unjust.
The Govenor asks what they are guilty of and they respond with "murder", he then asks what the Law states are the consequences of such a crime.
They respond "Death".
So, you agree that you committed the crime of murder and that the law gives you death?
they respond "yes".
Then, you are being treated justly.
It is my RIGHT to be merciful and pardon some if i so choose. and not give them what they deserve.
Hi Richard1965,

First, thankyou for actually addressing the OP and acknowledging what the reformed/Calvinist view is.

I have seen these types of analogies before - they fail for a number of reasons.

1. First, the penalty of death can be seen as a just and merciful punishment. Eternal torment is neither. Are you an annihilationist?

2. The analogy fails because it does not take into account God's decrees. If the Govenor above had previously decreed that all 2000 would commit murder, is it still just that they be punished to the highest severity for what the Govenor decreed they must do?

3. The analogy fails because it does not take into account God's power. If the Governor was all-powerful, as God is, he would have the power to correct all the wrongs the murderers had done, and also correct the harm they had caused to others, including resurrecting and reconciling all the victims. That is what God can do, but no human Governor can do this.


Peace...
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:03 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I was raised Calvinist..however, I don't agree with OSAS (once saved always saved).
It is difficult to undestand the purposes of God in the hands of evil men and government...ie Neb, Pharoah, Rome...but if you look at it this way....it isn't our job to understand Him and His ways.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.

Job 40:2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct [Him]? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

Should the painting understand the painter?
You don't believe in once saved always saved.......then i guess you also believe that Christ sacrifice was not good enough...you have to do more....right?
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