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Old 11-11-2009, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Even more cogent . . . this would make all of creation and human endeavor a completely PURPOSELESS, POINTLESS AND MEANINGLESS enactment of role playing . . . no different than the purposeless, meaningless and pointless view of an indifferent atheism.

You are very misguided and incorrect.

Psam 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

What man has done, all his progressive and positive endeavors, all declare the uttermost glory of God...not the self exalting belief that man has done it by himself, because he hasn't. That is where you fail. You attribute these things to man, when the glory and praise should be given to God.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,248 posts, read 20,001,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

Stop imposing your will and thoughts into the text.
I didn't and won't , it's you who is doing that . 1 verse in the whole of scripture and you have to twist it to say God does what He pleases.
There is nothing else in the scripture that supports God doing just what He pleases.
God is not wreckless . He is consitent in His ways, this we know from the scriptures without a shadow of doubt.
The notion that we don't understand something means God is doing just what He pleases is at the least a carnal thought.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:05 PM
 
37,553 posts, read 25,268,086 times
Reputation: 5858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
A Calvinist vs a mystic who doesn't believe in the words of the bible but the spirit of the words. This is going to be good.
It is hardly a contest, Fundy. Spiritual discernment means just that . . . SPIRITUAL discernment . . . NOT literal letter of the word reading and interpretation of primitive savages' ignorant understanding of God. 2 Corinthians 3:6 (King James Version)

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:05 PM
 
Location: US
26,298 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Actually the scripture says Jesus Christ is the Same yesterday,Today and forever .

Jesus also said if you have seen me , you have seen the Father .

Hebrews 1 verse 3 says

The Son(Jesus) is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being.

Now show us how God's son Jesus Christ went around doing anything remotely like what you read of in the Old Testament

The scriptures record He went around doing good.

Acts 10 verse 38

38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
"For I am the Lord, I do not change."
- Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:5-9
Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6 so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?" 7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I see it as the same thing, if the Word was god and the Word became flesh (Jesus), and He and The Father are one then, yes, God is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:19 PM
 
Location: US
26,298 posts, read 13,949,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is hardly a contest, Fundy. Spiritual discernment means just that . . . SPIRITUAL discernment . . . NOT literal letter of the word reading and interpretation of primitive savages' ignorant understanding of God. 2 Corinthians 3:6 (King James Version)

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
That verse is speaking about the Letter of the Law which indeed brought Death....not the Letter of scripture itself....

2 Corinthians 3


1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantónot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The Glory of the New Covenant

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.


This is not talking about interpreting the scripture any way one pleases, it still says what it says and there is no getting around it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: US
26,298 posts, read 13,949,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I say again: scripture does not speak of predestination to hell. But it does speak of predestination to be elect or non-elect.

It seems you misunderstood my point or are (perhaps unknowingly) twisting my words. Calvin knows that scripture speaks of predestination to being elect or non-elect. He also believes the nonelect are not saved, therefore he logically concludes people are predestined to hell (because people are predestined to be non-elect). That is simple logic, which so far you have not grasped.

You implied that all are elected in your analogy in post #169, and didn't deny it when I commented on it later. You said:

How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).

If you wish to change your analogy then please let me know. Otherwise your analogy is asserting all are elected, but some refuse God's election (as if that were possible).


I'm not claiming to be an expert on Calvinism. But I've read my fair share on it.

More ad hom. So far you have subtly jabbed that I "worship at the alter of Pink" and now claiming my argument is absurd, without giving any evidence its wrong. Can you actually address the argument and what Calvin said without the ad hom please? How about some evidence from Calvin supporting what you say? You can't simply bash what I say without providing counter evidence.

Example: I say "Calvin said ..."

Instead of you saying this: No that's wrong and absurd (no evidence given); you take everything out of context (no evidence given); I don't worship at the altar of some irrelevant person (subtle ad hom).

When instead you could say: No I believe you are mistaken because you have to take this other statement that Calvin made into account. Let me show you some evidence of what he said.

But so far you have not done that.

There you go misrepresenting what I said again! Read the quote in purple above, and compare it to what you wrote. I DID NOT say the non-elect are the same as "predestined to go to hell" period. You forgot the qualifier: if you believe the nonelect are not saved.

Let me explain it again:

Scripture shows some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be nonelect. Calvin & I agree here.

Scripture does not say the nonelect are not saved. This is where Calvin & I disagree. But if you do believe the nonelect are not saved, then you must also believe the nonelect are predestined to hell, because scripture shows us they were predestined to be nonelect. That is simple logic.


God created the wicked. They were wicked when He created them - they were created that way. That means God intended the wicked - wait for it - TO BE WICKED! Shocking I know. So the first cause for the wicked to do wicked things is GOD because God created them. There are plenty of scripture that say this, but here is a plain one:

Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

God, on purpose, made the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yep....
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I didn't and won't , it's you who is doing that . 1 verse in the whole of scripture and you have to twist it to say God does what He pleases.
There is nothing else in the scripture that supports God doing just what He pleases.
God is not wreckless . He is consitent in His ways, this we know from the scriptures without a shadow of doubt.
The notion that we don't understand something means God is doing just what He pleases is at the least a carnal thought.
Who ever said He was reckless, or inconsistent? Is this your understanding of the text?

You are wrong...stop imposing your will onto the text.
God is outside your understanding, and what is, is all for His glory.

Deal with it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:56 PM
 
Location: US
26,298 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
[quote=legoman;11433969]
Did you actually read the NASB version? I quoted it verbatim. Here it is again, straight from biblegateway.com and it does contain the word allegiance:

Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Other versions also have the word allegiance in there.

The literal translation does not include the word "Allegiance", it would seem that a UR translator might have inserted that word to strengthen his own views and bring the unlearned into the UR fold:

Isaiah 45:23 (Young's Literal Translation)


23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:59 PM
 
Location: US
26,298 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
[quote=tigetmax24;11441099]My apologies, the word "allegiance" does appear in the NASB.

I would be curious to see how this verse translates from the old Hebrew.


This is how:

Isaiah 45:23 (Young's Literal Translation)


23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:38 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,204,102 times
Reputation: 892
[quote=Richard1965;11587316]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
My apologies, the word "allegiance" does appear in the NASB.

I would be curious to see how this verse translates from the old Hebrew.


This is how:

Isaiah 45:23 (Young's Literal Translation)


23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.

The Hebrew word is shabba' ...

And it means to swear and oath or to adjure ... Now when we compare that word to the Greek word exomologeō, which is translated as confess in Rom 14:11, and in Phl 2:11, which are both quoting Isa 45:23 ... We see that the meaning of both words in this context is in
fact to swear an oath ... And exomologeo actually carries the sense of
celebration and praise.

These verses together are echoed in ...

Psa 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

and ...

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

and ...

Psa 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and return to the LORD. All the families from all the nations will worship you

and there are many more ... But you get the gist of it.
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