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Old 11-11-2009, 06:39 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Who ever said He was reckless, or inconsistent? Is this your understanding of the text?

You are wrong...stop imposing your will onto the text.
God is outside your understanding, and what is, is all for His glory.

Deal with it.
I am not even giving a shot at interpreting it . It's you who is doing this by saying God can do what the hell he likes .

When the word tells us to "Be still and know that I am God" , this tells me He is utterly dependable to be trusted as God, through His ways , character and nature. This is why He is God . He is unchanging, He's the same yesterday and forever.

What slander to say God just does what He wants just because He's God, this is how the likes of Hitler worked. This kind of thinking would never enter the mind of God , and likewise by His Spirit residing in me i would never think i could go around doing just as i please.

Show me please by the scriptures where God goes around doing just the hell what He wants. He is single minded not a double minded schizo.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:02 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then I believe you are in disagreement with the reformed community and all of the reformed authors I've ever read.
What am I supposed to do with this? Your personal opinion does nothing to demonstrate your point.

I say my view is reformed...you say it's not...you say 'tomaytoh'...I say 'tomawtoh'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
That is the core of the reformed view - God is sovereign, God does what He pleases.
God cannot lie. God must conform to that which is logical - ie., God cannot create a square circle. There are things God cannot do. This is both scriptural and in line with the reformers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The only reason the fall happened is because God decreed/ordained/planned it to happen that way. To suggest otherwise, is to suggest God made a mistake.
You have been repeatedly intimating that God actually causes evil. Again, where is your scripture to back this up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Consider your own qualifier statement above, that God could have prevented the fall if He had so chosen... then why didn't He? Because He did not want to prevent the fall. No one was twisting God's arm. God does as He pleases. The fall happened because God intended it.
The statement was not intended as a "qualifier." I wanted to ensure that you understood that the prescience of God does not equate to direct intervention with intent to actually cause Adam and Eve to commit sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
There can be no doubt that God intended sin to enter the world because scripture proclaims that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was not Plan B. Without sin, Jesus could not enter and become the savior of the world, thus sin was a necessary evil to show God's love and mercy.
With the exception of your "God intended sin" assertion and the fact that Jesus was needed due to sin - not vice versa, this is all spot on. God ordained the fall. In other words, he allowed the fall to occur - he didn't cause it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
PS I'm not interested in discussing/debating the trinity here, especially since it would be off-topic in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the trinity if you wish.
For crying out loud, can you even answer a simple question?

I don't want to debate the trinity either - I'm just trying to make a point.

How about this: Would you agree that some things that God does, seem to defy reason and logic? That we sometimes can't make sense out of what God is doing?

Last edited by tigetmax24; 11-11-2009 at 07:05 PM.. Reason: comma
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I am not even giving a shot at interpreting it . It's you who is doing this by saying God can do what the hell he likes .
He is God...His plan is ....what He wants!

Quote:
What slander to say God just does what He wants just because He's God, this is how the likes of Hitler worked. This kind of thinking would never enter the mind of God , and likewise by His Spirit residing in me i would never think i could go around doing just as i please.
Now you are likeneing a man with God...I see the your reasoning is elementary when it comes to the scripture. Keep drinking that milk!
The meat is next.

Quote:
Show me please by the scriptures where God goes around doing just the hell what He wants. He is single minded not a double minded schizo.
He does things for His own Glory...isn't that what He wants...Glory?

Your imposition of this interpretation is faulty, and contrary to the text of Psalm 115. What Psalm 115 says is that what He wants...is Glory from His people...and not idols and such...but true circumcision of the heart in order to receive the blessings thereof.

You have once again, turned the words of scripture around to say what you want to say, and not what it says.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:05 PM
 
37,514 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He does things for His own Glory...isn't that what He wants...Glory?

Your imposition of this interpretation is faulty, and contrary to the text of Psalm 115. What Psalm 115 says is that what He wants...is Glory from His people...and not idols and such...but true circumcision of the heart in order to receive the blessings thereof.

You have once again, turned the words of scripture around to say what you want to say, and not what it says.
This is the worst of the satanic misunderstandings of God . . . that He would want or need anything . . . let alone Glory from His own creations!!! God IS Glory. God NEEDS NOTHING from us. Everything He teaches us is for OUR benefit . . . NOT His!!! Humans seek Glory . . . NOT God!!! These primitive beliefs are ugly and defaming of our loving God. That they have lasted so long is a testament to the savagery and carnality of humankind!
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:40 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
What am I supposed to do with this? Your personal opinion does nothing to demonstrate your point.

I say my view is reformed...you say it's not...you say 'tomaytoh'...I say 'tomawtoh'...
You might want to chat with Richard1965 in this thread about the reformed view. Further you might want to read up some more on the reformed view.

Every reformed author I have ever read says in so many words that God intended the fall. You say God didn't and still claim to be reformed... what am I to believe? All these well-known reformed authors are really mistaken about the reformed view, and you have it right? Give it up. Perhaps you could now go read some of the reformed articles I posted previously.

Quote:
You have been repeatedly intimating that God actually causes evil. Again, where is your scripture to back this up?
Isaiah 45:7 ... I make peace and create evil.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jer 18:11 ... I frame evil against you...

Do you want more? There is plenty of scriptural examples of God causing plagues, famine, disasters, wars, etc.

I'm guessing you think all these verses are talking about calamity. The word in all these verses is "ra", the same word in the tree of knowledge of good and evil; its not the tree of knowledge of good and calamity, is it?

Even so, is a calamity not really evil? If God causes a tsunami to kill thousands of people, is that not some kind of evil? If God causes a war, is the war not evil? These are real evils, yet God will use them for good.

God subjected the whole creation to vanity in Romans 8:20 -> is vanity not an evil?

Yet all these evils that God creates are merely temporary and for a higher ultimate good. Would you say its evil if I told you I had just slapped a baby? With limited information you would probably say yes. But what if I then told you the baby was choking, and the only way I could save it was to slap it on the back to dislodge the blockage? Sometimes a temporary evil is necessary for a greater good.

Quote:
The statement was not intended as a "qualifier." I wanted to ensure that you understood that the prescience of God does not equate to direct intervention with intent to actually cause Adam and Eve to commit sin.

With the exception of your "God intended sin" assertion and the fact that Jesus was needed due to sin - not vice versa, this is all spot on. God ordained the fall. In other words, he allowed the fall to occur - he didn't cause it.
Do you really not see that when God ordains something, He has also caused that same something to happen? God is the first cause of everything. If God had not ordained the fall, it wouldn't have happened - thus God caused it to happen by ordaining it. There is no "allow" when it comes to God's sovereignty. "Allow" suggests He didn't think of it, didn't want it, something else caused it and God had to react. Basically your use of "allow" is saying there is another force in the universe greater than God.

Quote:
For crying out loud, can you even answer a simple question?

I don't want to debate the trinity either - I'm just trying to make a point.

How about this: Would you agree that some things that God does, seem to defy reason and logic? That we sometimes can't make sense out of what God is doing?
If there is something you cannot make sense out of, maybe you need to re-evaluate whether it is really true or not. Personally I don't fully understand the doctrine of trinity - certain things do not line up with scripture. I try to go with what scripture says.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:48 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Hebrew word is shabba' ...

And it means to swear and oath or to adjure ... Now when we compare that word to the Greek word exomologeō, which is translated as confess in Rom 14:11, and in Phl 2:11, which are both quoting Isa 45:23 ... We see that the meaning of both words in this context is in
fact to swear an oath ... And exomologeo actually carries the sense of
celebration and praise.

These verses together are echoed in ...

Psa 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

and ...

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

and ...

Psa 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and return to the LORD. All the families from all the nations will worship you

and there are many more ... But you get the gist of it.
Thanks Ironmaw, saved me the effort.

It is true that some bibles only translate Isa 45:23 as "swear" instead of "swear allegiance", but that doesn't change the fact that the primary meaning of "swear" there is to "take an oath" or "swear an oath". If you look at the words used in the other "bow and confess" verses (Rom 14:11, Phil 2:11) you will see that the confession is actually a willing joyful expression of celebration, praise and worship - a swearing of allegiance.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:10 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,195 posts, read 19,981,427 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He is God...His plan is ....what He wants!



Now you are likeneing a man with God...I see the your reasoning is elementary when it comes to the scripture. Keep drinking that milk!
The meat is next.



He does things for His own Glory...isn't that what He wants...Glory?

Your imposition of this interpretation is faulty, and contrary to the text of Psalm 115. What Psalm 115 says is that what He wants...is Glory from His people...and not idols and such...but true circumcision of the heart in order to receive the blessings thereof.

You have once again, turned the words of scripture around to say what you want to say, and not what it says.
No it's you who is doing this , why can you not see this . You are using one scripture that i actually provided you and twisted it to say what you believe . I have asked you to support your argument with scripture and you cannot , and this alone is amazing considering you are a preterist.

Whatever God does as i have already pointed out is for a purpose and has reason and effect. He does not go around doing just what the hell He likes just because He's God.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:28 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You might want to chat with Richard1965 in this thread about the reformed view. Further you might want to read up some more on the reformed view.
Yes, we've already established your tendency to steer only towards authors and opinions and scripture verses that appear to line up with your predetermined erroneous template.

Here is an open book question for you: Why is the protestant reformation called the reformation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Every reformed author I have ever read says in so many words that God intended the fall.
Where are your quotes from Luther and Calvin of God causing the fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You say God didn't and still claim to be reformed... what am I to believe?
You're not paying attention. I stated that God ordained the fall and that God did not cause the fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
All these well-known reformed authors are really mistaken about the reformed view, and you have it right?
As previously stated, I'm trying to keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that I may indeed have it wrong. Are you willing to do the same?

Up to now, your efforts to explain/demonstrate why my view is wrong have been extremely lacking in context and coherency. Basically, all you've been doing is repeatedly restating your own opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Give it up. Perhaps you could now go read some of the reformed articles I posted previously.
Stick to the reformers. As stated, these other authors have nothing to do with our discussion which concerns what the reformed view is vice what various modern commentators opine about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Isaiah 45:7 ... I make peace and create evil.
No surprise here. At least you're in good company as this is one of the most misunderstood texts in the Bible. The Elizabethan English found in the King James presents part of the problem. The translation from Hebrew is also problematic. My understanding is that the Hebrew language has seven distinctive words that can be translated by the English word evil. Whenever scripture speaks of God bringing evil it is from the perspective of the respective authors. It should also be noted that this portion of scripture is written in poetic form utilizing parallelism.

"I create the light and the darkness..."

Light and darkness are antonyms, where as, peace and evil are not.

You've stated that God is loving. Would it be loving for God to commit evil or cause evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Here again, the evil is in the eye of the beholder. What one views as evil may not necessarily constitute that which actually is evil. Was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah evil? To the inhabitants it most probably seemed so. We often refer to things we view as unfortunate as being bad, hurtful or evil when, in the final analysis, there is no actual evil committed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Again, evil is not the antonym of good. The antonym of good is bad. The rain falls on both the good and the bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Jer 18:11 ... I frame evil against you...
In context, God wants Jeremiah to inform Israel that bad things are going to happen as a result of God's righteous judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Do you want more? There is plenty of scriptural examples of God causing plagues, famine, disasters, wars, etc.
If you think it will help to justify your argument, bring it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I'm guessing you think all these verses are talking about calamity. The word in all these verses is "ra", the same word in the tree of knowledge of good and evil; its not the tree of knowledge of good and calamity, is it?

Even so, is a calamity not really evil? If God causes a tsunami to kill thousands of people, is that not some kind of evil? If God causes a war, is the war not evil? These are real evils, yet God will use them for good.
My understanding is that God causes calamity for just reasons. He does not capriciously commit evil acts for the simple sake of an inner desire to do evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God subjected the whole creation to vanity in Romans 8:20 -> is vanity not an evil?
Yes. We are subjected to all sorts of evil. The question is: Does God cause this evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yet all these evils that God creates are merely temporary and for a higher ultimate good. Would you say its evil if I told you I had just slapped a baby? With limited information you would probably say yes. But what if I then told you the baby was choking, and the only way I could save it was to slap it on the back to dislodge the blockage? Sometimes a temporary evil is necessary for a greater good.
Agreed. This falls right in line with my aforementioned assertion. What we tend to view as evil may not actually be evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Do you really not see that when God ordains something, He has also caused that same something to happen? God is the first cause of everything. If God had not ordained the fall, it wouldn't have happened - thus God caused it to happen by ordaining it.
God being the first cause does not automatically prohibit God from creating beings with the ability to choose to commit sin. Your assertion here is absurd - think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
There is no "allow" when it comes to God's sovereignty. "Allow" suggests He didn't think of it, didn't want it, something else caused it and God had to react. Basically your use of "allow" is saying there is another force in the universe greater than God.
God, in his prescience, knows who will commit evil, what evil will be committed and when it will be committed. He may choose to intervene and stop it or he may choose to permit the evil to occur. How does this in any way shape or form, militate against God's sovereignty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
If there is something you cannot make sense out of, maybe you need to re-evaluate whether it is really true or not. Personally I don't fully understand the doctrine of trinity - certain things do not line up with scripture. I try to go with what scripture says.
So, you are then of the opinion that everything God does can be understood. God never does anything beyond our understanding. Is that your assertion?
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:50 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Richard, do you believe babies go to hell? Or do you believe all babies that die are elect?

I would suggest if you don't know, or if you think babies can go to hell, you may not have a good understanding of God's love and God's justice.

As to your question, yes scripture says one must believe and be baptized in fire (the holy spirit). Don't you think all the babies will believe when they are bowing to Christ, calling him Lord and swearing allegiance to him?

Furthermore do you think they will still actually be babies? Personally I think babies who die will still have to grow and mature - God will see that it happens IMHO.
You seem to tickle your own ears here.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:58 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Richard1965,

First, thankyou for actually addressing the OP and acknowledging what the reformed/Calvinist view is.

I have seen these types of analogies before - they fail for a number of reasons.

1. First, the penalty of death can be seen as a just and merciful punishment. Eternal torment is neither. Are you an annihilationist?

2. The analogy fails because it does not take into account God's decrees. If the Govenor above had previously decreed that all 2000 would commit murder, is it still just that they be punished to the highest severity for what the Govenor decreed they must do?

3. The analogy fails because it does not take into account God's power. If the Governor was all-powerful, as God is, he would have the power to correct all the wrongs the murderers had done, and also correct the harm they had caused to others, including resurrecting and reconciling all the victims. That is what God can do, but no human Governor can do this.



Peace...
It does not fail, it explains how God can save some and condemn others in a more current way or in more finite terms.....but, Paul's explanation is much better.....
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