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Old 10-21-2009, 08:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I will use a limited finite argument to show your fallacy as best I can.

I have a baby child. I terrorize the child by kicking it in the stomach. The child screams continuously. I tell the child if it keeps screaming, I will kick it in the head. The child screams again, so I kick it in the head.

Is that justice? Not the best analogy, but I don't think anyone would call that justice.

Let me repeat the premise in the OP. You haven't denied the premise, so I'm assuming that is what you believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Essentially:
God predestines a person to sin and then torments, tortures and terrorizes that person for eternity.

And the best answer you can come up with is "my sense of justice is not God's sense of justice"? LOL. That is an understatement. Essentially you are saying God's sense of justice is the complete opposite of man's sense of justice! I guess God didn't really imprint a sense of right and wrong in mankind.

Sure we may be finite beings, but I know a little bit about right and wrong. Torturing someone for eternity for being exactly as you made them can in no sense be described as justice! Use your brain here Fundy. God's ways are HIGHER than man's ways, not LOWER than man's ways.
Legoman I find you universalists to not only be illogical but emotionally abusive, love to deconstruct and then reconstruct what others say building strawmans, that said. Once again you built a strawman and your analogy is ridiculous.

I believe God predestines those who He saves-that is Calvinism predestination. God doesn't make people sin, that is not in scripture but your strawman.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
As oppose to your definition of justice? just what is justice?
Some definitions from the dictionary:
- to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds
- the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause
- the administering of deserved punishment or reward
- to act or treat justly or fairly
- The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law

Here's a good definition from a bible dictionary:
- rendering to every one that which is his due. It has been distinguished from equity in this respect, that while justice means merely the doing what positive law demands, equity means the doing of what is fair and right in every separate case


Notice the theme here? Doing what is right and fair. Doing what is deserved, appropriate to the case. A just punishment.

Scripture refers to this as many stripes or few stripes. Everyone will receive according to what they have done. Punishment that fits the crime. That is justice.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Legoman I find you universalists to not only be illogical but emotionally abusive, love to deconstruct and then reconstruct what others say building strawmans, that said. Once again you built a strawman and your analogy is ridiculous.

I believe God predestines those who He saves-that is Calvinism predestination. God doesn't make people sin, that is not in scripture but your strawman.
Sorry for the analogy about the child, I had a hard time coming up with one.

But it sounds like you don't agree with my premise #1 "God predestines people to sin". If that is the case, then I can in some sense understand your sense of justice. I don't agree with it, but so be it. BTW I never said God makes people sin directly. But if God predestines everything, then indeed He did predestine sin to enter. If you don't believe that, fine.

My beef is with people (namely Calvinists) who state God predestines people to sin, then state God predestines these same people to eternal hell, and then insist this is somehow "justice". Its simply illogical and irrational thinking.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:10 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,414,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I believe God predestines those who He saves-that is Calvinism predestination. God doesn't make people sin, that is not in scripture but your strawman.
Regardless that is what some people believe. Even your idea of predestining people to be saved - by God's inaction, He has essentially predestined the rest to hell. That is simple logic, you cannot deny it.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:12 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You are arguing an infinite question using a finite, limited, fallen basis of understanding? That's not logical. What your sense of justice is not necessarily God's sense of justice. He is beyond us, He is the potter and we are clay pots.
Actually God is far more just and merciful than any of us. It's ludicrous how you insinuate God's justice is worse than that of man, on the basis that God's ways are not ours.

2 Samuel 24

14 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:14 AM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,111,871 times
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Calvinism is what was preached when I first made my way back to church a few years ago . . . as I loved my pastor's sermons . . . and so wanted a church family . . . I was a willing student in regards to learning about Calvinism . . . I no longer can attend a church who's basic teaching comes from Calvinism.

This teaching is referred to as Five Point Calvinism. The five points are represented by using the acrostic below:


T - Total depravity of man.
U - Unconditional election.
L - Limited atonement.
I - Irresistible grace.
P - Perseverance of the saints.

Basically, Calvinism teaches that a man is totally depraved, and unable to receive salvation. The Calvinist assumes that man's has no free in his coming to Christ and receiving salvation. He teaches that God, exercising His sovereignty, first elected and decreed certain individuals to salvation in time past. Christ's death was not for all people, but only for the elect. God then extended "irresistible" grace to those He elected. Therefore, man had nothing to do with receiving salvation because God chose to save him and caused him to believe.(1)
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:17 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sorry for the analogy about the child, I had a hard time coming up with one.

But it sounds like you don't agree with my premise #1 "God predestines people to sin". If that is the case, then I can in some sense understand your sense of justice. I don't agree with it, but so be it. BTW I never said God makes people sin directly. But if God predestines everything, then indeed He did predestine sin to enter. If you don't believe that, fine.

My beef is with people (namely Calvinists) who state God predestines people to sin, then state God predestines these same people to eternal hell, and then insist this is somehow "justice". Its simply illogical and irrational thinking.
Just the presence of God allows for sin. We are all sinners-we are all vile, horrible human beings who is only capable of wickedness and evil (remember Noah's ark) when we do bad that is our true nature showing but when we do good that is the grace of God restraining our hearts. God restrains our hearts from doing bad, He restrains those from their true nature as He turns others over through judgment to their sinful nature thus hardening their hearts (remember Pharoh). That is God's sovereignty. He chooses who He will do this to and He has every right.

We ALL deserve hell and God would be justified in sending us ALL there but God shows His grace and mercy by keeping some even though that some deserves hell as well. Is this fair? No and I am glad God isn't fair because if He was fair then we would ALL go to hell

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-21-2009 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:19 AM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,111,871 times
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As far as who is the elect and who isn't elected...the parable of the man born blind is a Jesus answer to the question.

read it very very very carefully as to the questions and answers...

Jesus does answer this question...Calvinists though usually just chalk it up to another anonymous miracle that doesn't give us any "new information" though...and that their "prophet" John Calvin is right...regardless of what Jesus said.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:20 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Actually God is far more just and merciful than any of us. It's ludicrous how you insinuate God's justice is worse than that of man, on the basis that God's ways are not ours.

2 Samuel 24

14 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."
Pcamps I have had enough of your ridiculous strawmans. ask a question but stop putting words in people's mouths
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:22 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
As far as who is the elect and who isn't elected...the parable of the man born blind is a Jesus answer to the question.

read it very very very carefully as to the questions and answers...

Jesus does answer this question...Calvinists though usually just chalk it up to another anonymous miracle that doesn't give us any "new information" though...and that their "prophet" John Calvin is right...regardless of what Jesus said.
Please expound?
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