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Old 11-13-2009, 09:18 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You seem to tickle your own ears here.
You didn't answer the question:

Richard, do you believe babies go to hell? Or do you believe all babies that die are elect?
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Old 11-13-2009, 09:43 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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TigetMax,

I'm not sure what definition of "ordain" you are using, but to ordain something means to decree, to foreordain, to predestine, and indeed this means that when God ordains something He has caused it to happen, by His own decree. Ordain does not mean "allow". Ordain is a synonym for decree or predestine.

You contradict yourself when you say God ordains the fall but didn't intend the fall to happen. If He didn't intend for it to happen, He would not have decreed it so.

But back to the OP, if God ordained the fall, then God ordained that people sin. If God then punishes people eternally for the sins that God ordained & decreed, then God intentionally made some men for eternal misery.
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Old 11-13-2009, 09:46 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,255,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Whatever God does as i have already pointed out is for a purpose and has reason and effect. He does not go around doing just what the hell He likes just because He's God.
Well said, pcamps.Those who believe God is capricious and purposeless might as well be atheists . . . since that is how atheists perceive nature and life anyway.
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Old 11-13-2009, 09:53 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It does not fail, it explains how God can save some and condemn others in a more current way or in more finite terms.....but, Paul's explanation is much better.....
Of course your analogy fails.

Answer me this:

How is it just for God to condemn a man eternally for doing exactly what God had ordained and predestined the man to do? How is that justice in any sense of the word?
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,146,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?
Calvanism does not say that God predestines Man to sin. What it does say is that ALL of mankind is born into a state of sin as a result of Adam's original sin. We inherited that nature from our first representitive.
Christians of all theolgies believe that the result of that fall is eternal separation from God. I think that describes Hell the best.
God is not predistining anyone to go to hell. Going to Hell is the justice we get for being the sons and daughters of Adam and being found guilty by a Holy God as sinners.
Out of this mass of sinners God sovereignly CHOOSES or ELECTS a people that He makes a provision for to spend eternity with Him.
The fact that he has known these people since "Before the foundation of the world" as it says in the bible is Predestination. This is the special favour or Grace of God. So in this world all mankind gets either Justice from God as He is a just God or they get Grace from God because he is also Gracious.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:06 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Whatever God does as i have already pointed out is for a purpose and has reason and effect. He does not go around doing just what the hell He likes just because He's God.
I agree too. Even though God did ordain the fall of man (digs a pit and does not cover it), God will display His goodness in that what falls into the pit and dies, He pays for it (His Son Jesus on the cross) and claims the dead (sinners) as His own:

Here is how God explains the concept in His law:

Exo 21:33 And when a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit, and does not cover it, and an ox or an ass falls into it,
Exo 21:34 the owner of the pit shall pay; he shall give silver to its owner, and the dead shall be his.

We have a marvelous God that loves us!
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:28 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,211 posts, read 19,991,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I agree too. Even though God did ordain the fall of man (digs a pit and does not cover it), God will display His goodness in that what falls into the pit and dies, He pays for it (His Son Jesus on the cross) and claims the dead (sinners) as His own:

Here is how God explains the concept in His law:

Exo 21:33 And when a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit, and does not cover it, and an ox or an ass falls into it,
Exo 21:34 the owner of the pit shall pay; he shall give silver to its owner, and the dead shall be his.

We have a marvelous God that loves us!
Amen
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:35 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,211 posts, read 19,991,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Of course your analogy fails.

Answer me this:

How is it just for God to condemn a man eternally for doing exactly what God had ordained and predestined the man to do? How is that justice in any sense of the word?
If God can do just what the hell He likes, how can we argue against it , but on the other hand if He's a just God the claim is laughable unjust and a mockery of what justice is.
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Old 11-14-2009, 05:01 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
TigetMax,

I'm not sure what definition of "ordain" you are using, but to ordain something means to decree, to foreordain, to predestine, and indeed this means that when God ordains something He has caused it to happen, by His own decree. Ordain does not mean "allow". Ordain is a synonym for decree or predestine.

You contradict yourself when you say God ordains the fall but didn't intend the fall to happen. If He didn't intend for it to happen, He would not have decreed it so.

But back to the OP, if God ordained the fall, then God ordained that people sin. If God then punishes people eternally for the sins that God ordained & decreed, then God intentionally made some men for eternal misery.
So now were down to the semantics game?

Yes, let's get back to the OP instead of your absurd, ridiculous and stupid assertion about God being a sinner just like the rest of us.

In my last post, I asked you a question concerning the meaning of the reformation - completely on topic with your OP. Are you going to answer or are you going to deflect to another off topic issue from whence you turn around and intimate that I'm the one that's off topic?
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Old 11-14-2009, 06:04 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
So now were down to the semantics game?
Yet again you don't address the point. I don't know why I waste my time explaining something simply for you to ignore it.

Explain your definition of "ordain" and how it does not also imply causation.

Quote:
Yes, let's get back to the OP instead of your absurd, ridiculous and stupid assertion about God being a sinner just like the rest of us.
I never said God was a sinner. God is not a sinner. Who's really deflecting here?

Quote:
In my last post, I asked you a question concerning the meaning of the reformation - completely on topic with your OP. Are you going to answer or are you going to deflect to another off topic issue from whence you turn around and intimate that I'm the one that's off topic?
LOL... such demands... how about you answer some of my previous posts that you still have yet to address. If you can't address them then I assume you have conceeded the point. Specifically:

You asked where your analogy said "all were elected". I showed you (post #216). No response from you.

You asked how your analogy was illogical. I showed you (posts #217, #218, #219). No response from you. I'm really interested in what you say on post #217, as I've shown how logically, and based on scripture, and IF YOU BELIEVE THE NON-ELECT GO TO HELL, that God has predestined some to hell.

Look I don't really have time to write an essay on the reformation right now. I have a busy weekend and I don't need to do your homework. I study it as time allows. How about this: You show me a statement from Calvin or Luther that says God did not intend the fall.
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