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Old 11-14-2009, 06:05 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Calvanism does not say that God predestines Man to sin. What it does say is that ALL of mankind is born into a state of sin as a result of Adam's original sin. We inherited that nature from our first representitive.
Christians of all theolgies believe that the result of that fall is eternal separation from God. I think that describes Hell the best.
God is not predistining anyone to go to hell. Going to Hell is the justice we get for being the sons and daughters of Adam and being found guilty by a Holy God as sinners.
Out of this mass of sinners God sovereignly CHOOSES or ELECTS a people that He makes a provision for to spend eternity with Him.
The fact that he has known these people since "Before the foundation of the world" as it says in the bible is Predestination. This is the special favour or Grace of God. So in this world all mankind gets either Justice from God as He is a just God or they get Grace from God because he is also Gracious.
lucknow, why did Adam sin?
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Old 11-14-2009, 06:07 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
If God can do just what the hell He likes, how can we argue against it , but on the other hand if He's a just God the claim is laughable unjust and a mockery of what justice is.
Exactly. With that view we are all doomed, even the Calvinists, because God can decide to change His mind, save no one, and its still just and loving.

JUSTICE=INJUSTICE
LOVE=ETERNAL TORTURE

The doublethink here is amazing.
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:37 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yet again you don't address the point. I don't know why I waste my time explaining something simply for you to ignore it.

Explain your definition of "ordain" and how it does not also imply causation.
Now, who is the one purposely deflecting from the OP? Is this about your warped view of Calvinism (Reformed Theology) or does it concern the argument of the precise definitions of words such as: ordain?

You have absurdly and ridiculously intimated that God caused the fall (a sin) to occur. That Adam and Eve were merely puppets being controlled by a capricious, sin causing, God. Its your intimation - you must prove it or explain the practicality of your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I never said God was a sinner. God is not a sinner. Who's really deflecting here?
True, you never stated God is a sinner. You do assert that God causes evil. That he caused Adam and Eve to sin. You are laying down a clear and unambiguous indictment against God's holiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
LOL... such demands... how about you answer some of my previous posts that you still have yet to address.
Two can play at this game. What is to stop me from laying out excessively wordy back-to-back posts, posts that would take virtually forever to respond to, and then turn and criticize you for failing to respond? I have repeatedly asked you to point out which specific points you wish me to respond to -and, at long last, you have - so I will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You asked where your analogy said "all were elected". I showed you (post #216). No response from you.
There is no such thing as a perfect analogy. The intent of my analogy was to provide an alternative analogy to the analogy that you presented. Basically, to assert that mans choice to refuse the invitation militates against your God as puppet master analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You asked how your analogy was illogical. I showed you (posts #217, #218, #219).
Your posts do nothing to show that my analogy is illogical. My basic assertion is that man is culpable for sin. Reprobation is achieved by mans choice to pursue sin. Calvin very clearly explains all this in those portions of his writing which you conveniently choose to ignore because they don't fit in with your predetermined template.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I'm really interested in what you say on post #217, as I've shown how logically, and based on scripture, and IF YOU BELIEVE THE NON-ELECT GO TO HELL, that God has predestined some to hell.
Choice lego. Choice. We choose to commit sin. Adam and Eve chose to sin. We all choose to sin. Reprobates choose to sin. This is Biblical truth that is aptly aknowledged by all the reformers - to include John Calvin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Look I don't really have time to write an essay on the reformation right now. I have a busy weekend and I don't need to do your homework. I study it as time allows. How about this: You show me a statement from Calvin or Luther that says God did not intend the fall.
You're the one making the ridiculous assertions - therefore, you can do your own "homework."

Last edited by tigetmax24; 11-14-2009 at 07:40 AM.. Reason: Change be to by
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,442,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

One thing is for sure, we can't blame God when we choose to do what God specifically instructs us not to do.

Ypu can say that again.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:47 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,920,882 times
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God being the first cause does not automatically prohibit God from creating beings with the ability to choose to commit sin. Your assertion here is absurd - think about it.

God, in his prescience, knows who will commit evil, what evil will be committed and when it will be committed. He may choose to intervene and stop it or he may choose to permit the evil to occur. How does this in any way shape or form, militate against God's sovereignty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
There is no "allow" when it comes to God's sovereignty. "Allow" suggests He didn't think of it, didn't want it, something else caused it and God had to react. Basically your use of "allow" is saying there is another force in the universe greater than God.
God, in his prescience, knows who will commit evil, what evil will be committed and when it will be committed. He may choose to intervene and stop it or he may choose to permit the evil to occur. How does this in any way shape or form, militate against God's sovereignty?

Again, if God says nothing exists without Him making it exist.....Then that includes everything. Period. God has decreed all and nothing happens outside His Will. Just because we think something is not fair does not negate the fact that God has brought it to pass. God does not have prescience He has OMNISCIENCE. I don't see the word prescience in the scriptures at all. Whether He has Decreed something or knows before hand the event it does not negate the fact that it will occur. By saying that we have Free Will puts us on an equal level with God...He has Free Will, We have Free Will...He causes everthing to come to pass according to His secret council.....We have control over our own destinies....It is either one or the other, it cannot be both because they conflict with one another....either we have control over our destinies or God does, but, there cannot be both.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,920,882 times
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It takes logic and reason to understand even the perceived difficulties in scripture. It can be done. If one would stop trying to read ones own opinion into scripture.....it says what it says, there is no getting around it.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:59 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Calvanism does not say that God predestines Man to sin. What it does say is that ALL of mankind is born into a state of sin as a result of Adam's original sin. We inherited that nature from our first representitive.
Christians of all theolgies believe that the result of that fall is eternal separation from God. I think that describes Hell the best.
God is not predistining anyone to go to hell. Going to Hell is the justice we get for being the sons and daughters of Adam and being found guilty by a Holy God as sinners.
Out of this mass of sinners God sovereignly CHOOSES or ELECTS a people that He makes a provision for to spend eternity with Him.
The fact that he has known these people since "Before the foundation of the world" as it says in the bible is Predestination. This is the special favour or Grace of God. So in this world all mankind gets either Justice from God as He is a just God or they get Grace from God because he is also Gracious.
Amen to that my fellow Calvinist.....but, go a little deeper.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:17 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
Reputation: 326
A website that loves to debate all the fine details and philosophical arguments about the fall of man, and how it relates to predestination and God's eternal decrees (supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism) may want to try this site:

Predestinarian Network

Find the folder: Free Archive, and scroll through the subject threads. Warning: You might get lost therein, your friends may not recognize you when you surface and you might not infact resurface for months...LOL

Some of the members of that site have spent years sharpening their intellectual blades concerning the subject matter. But like Solomon, be forewarned:

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and to investigate by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-14-2009 at 10:19 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Is it Justice to prosecute the decendants for the Sin of the father?
Adam and Eve committed their own Sin....why are we guilty of that Sin?
Is it right to send a son to the electric chair also because his father committed murder?
Was it fair of God to love Jacob and hate Esau before they were born and before they had done anything good or bad....this was so his purpose for election might stand.....He elected Jacob....and left Esau unelected......hmmm....now, if we say that God foreknew this, then it was just as certain that it would take place as if He decreed it...which He says He does....DECREES what comes to pass....Now, if we say God knew which one of the twins would be Good or bad because He looked down the corridor of time and saw this...then logically that means that there was something God did not know and therefore had to learn of it by looking down the corridor of time....This statement negates God's OMNISCIENCE.
Omniscience is not knowledge learned, but, knowledge that IS...and this knowledge had existence in God's mind at the moment of conception of the finite universe...everything was formulated in God's mind in that instance....this is why He says that He declares the End from the Beggining, those things from Ancient times not done. What are the things from Ancient times not done?....they are declared...Decreed....fore-ordained....predestined....predetermined....God is determined that things play out as His will desires.....So, in light of this attribute of God's....how should we look at the scriptures that indicate free will?.....If we think we have free will...where does the will come from? This will of ours did not exist until God's conceived it from the beginning that it should come to pass. to think that we control our own destinies and that we have free will is to say that our God is weak and that we are in control of everything and that He is just sitting up there hopeing we choose what He wants us to choose. If this is correct, then we need to cease using the terms omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent with reference to God....because in light of free will....none of those attributes can be applied to God.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:03 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,920,882 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Richard I know. "we love Him because He first loved us" but I do see verses that "contradict". I call these paradoxes like which came first regeneration or repentance?...and I am fine with it. I am at peace with it. I have accepted that we cannot fully comprehend even the basic of doctrines taught to our little ones in Sunday School.
Not paradoxical....but our faulty reasoning that makes us see them as contradictions....i don't think God will lead us by the hand all the time...some things He will outright state and other things He will leave to reasoning....God says that He will bring all to pass according to His will, then other points of scripture ask for us to choose (an element of free will)....So, here is the contradiction.....does God bring all things to pass....or do we bring all things to pass according to our free will? Or does our "Free Will" have a source higher than our own minds and that we are designed by God to make our "free will" choice based on His causal effects in our lives? In other words our DNA is so designed that we are predesposed to certain things that say, our neighbor is not, simple exapmle.....fear of water....one person has a unreasonable fear of drowning in even the shallowest of water while the other has no fear at all, one has a predisposition to fear and the other has a predisposition to courage and fearlessness....One has a predisposition to overspiritualize everything and the other has a predisposition to reason.....God did not create us because He needed someone to love and someone to love Him back of their own free will....He had the Angels for such....all this was to the purpose of glorifying Himself...and no one else....that begs the question.....Who is He glorifying Himself to????
If one truly desires to know God fully as He has revealed Himself to man...all His attributes and facets....it can be done....i do not follow Calvin, it was thru him that i learned to reason things instead of overspiritualizing things....which is what a lot of the mstery religions do. I do not agree with everthing i read in Calvinism...but most of it makes sense.
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