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Old 11-15-2009, 11:30 AM
 
Location: US
26,274 posts, read 13,935,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
To clarify, I stated that it is God's desire that none should parish.
Then God lies:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter is talking to Christians, not the unsaved, that is plain when he uses the compound word "us-ward". Otherwise these two passages contradict one another and that would make God a liar...which He is NOT.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Where does it say in the scriptures God chooses whom He wishes for Salvation ? .
I will eat my hat if you can find a scripture that clearly states this.
It states it in Romans 9. Read it carefully....and the fact that He chose the Jews over the whole world...which He loved?
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:43 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Did you find that scripture yet that clearly states that God chooses who He wishes for Salvation ? , i am putting off my lunch just in case i have to eat my hat .
Well, go get your hat....
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:48 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,986,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It states it in Romans 9. Read it carefully....and the fact that He chose the Jews over the whole world...which He loved?
Does John 3 verse 16 mean For God so loved the world ? or For God so loved the Jews ?.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus . Galatians 3 verse 28


For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Ephesians 2 verse 14
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:55 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No..not according to Scripture.

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

2Cr 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



Phl 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Psa 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

Psa 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Cr 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive




The truth is Calvinists are wrong about the fact that God will have all me to be saved, and Arminians are wrong about the election and predstination of souls. Also the problem with calvinism is understand what it means to be called or chosen.

Put together Arminiansim and Calvinism and you come to the truth of things ... That the many/all are called to salvation, but only a few are chosen to rule with Christ and have life pertaining to the ages.

Also the Arminians have it wrong that faith is a work of man, Calvinists have it right faith is a gift of God by election alone. But Calvinists and Arminians are wrong about the fact that you dont have to believe in Christ before you die to be saved. The problem both groups have is understanding the remedial chastising of the fiery judgments of God which are for the purpose of purification and sanctification of them that are so judged ...




1 Cor 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.





To bad so few Christians are willing or able to come to a knowledge of this truth. Nevertheless, Gods will be done ...

Amen and Selah ...
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,695 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You continue to assert John Calvin doesn't preach a predestination to hell, yet the above statements of his say he does. Does Calvin contradict these statements elsewhere?

Please point me to these portions of John Calvin that "militate against my intimation of predestination to hell".
You've come down on me repeatedly with accusations of ignoring your posts. Now it seems that I would be well within my right to do the same to you.

Nevertheless, as stated, I'm not going to waste my time on a Calvin quotation tit-for-tat. The writings are all readily available and you have demonstrated both your ability to read and source as illustrated by your repeated posting of out-of-context quotations.

You've been making an utter fool of yourself throughout this thread due to your stubborn refusal to educate yourself with sincere objectivity.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:53 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,695 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Peter is talking to Christians, not the unsaved, that is plain when he uses the compound word "us-ward". Otherwise these two passages contradict one another and that would make God a liar...which He is NOT.
Agreed, God does not lie.

You intimate that Peter's use of "any" and "all" is directed at Christians?

If your answer is in the affirm, how can this passage make any sense?

Last edited by tigetmax24; 11-15-2009 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: change us to use
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:54 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Then God lies:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter is talking to Christians, not the unsaved, that is plain when he uses the compound word "us-ward". Otherwise these two passages contradict one another and that would make God a liar...which He is NOT.

I Disagree ... What if God chooses to have mercy on all men not just believers? And what if he chooses to have mercy on a few now, and later on the many? What if, as i believe to be true, "us-ward" means all men in the dispensation of the fullness of times, but only believers now in the ages? This can also be true according to what you have posted. Its just looking at it from another perspective which is also based on further exegesis of scripture, such as 1 Tim 4:10 ... And there are countless scriptures which state that God is in fact going to save all men, and reconcile all things to himself through Christ, so that all kindred of all nations and all things in the heavens and in the earth will be brought back into harmony with God. The only scriptures that seem to contradict these understandings outright are the ones that have been mistranslated from the original texts wherein the Greek words aion and its adjective forms aionios and aionion and the Hebrew word olam are concerned ... Once the true understanding of what those words in fact mean is discerned, then all the sudden the concept of eternal damnation practically ceases to exist in light of the prevailing doctrine of universal reconciliation found throughout the texts of the bible in both old and new testaments alike.

Understanding this it becomes obvious the reason why the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries AD believe in the doctrine of Universal reconciliation, or apocatastasis as it was known then by the native Greek speaking eastern churches and theological seminaries. Also it is no wonder why the capital of the pagan world of the time(Carthage/Rome) and the theological school that existed therein believed in eternal torture, because of the fact that they were not native Greek speaking peoples but where in fact native Latin speaking peoples of the west.

Amen and Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-15-2009 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:59 PM
 
Location: US
26,274 posts, read 13,935,357 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

2Cr 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



Phl 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Psa 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

Psa 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Cr 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive




The truth is Calvinists are wrong about the fact that God will have all me to be saved, and Arminians are wrong about the election and predstination of souls. Also the problem with calvinism is understand what it means to be called or chosen.

Put together Arminiansim and Calvinism and you come to the truth of things ... That the many/all are called to salvation, but only a few are chosen to rule with Christ and have life pertaining to the ages.

Also the Arminians have it wrong that faith is a work of man, Calvinists have it right faith is a gift of God by election alone. But Calvinists and Arminians are wrong about the fact that you dont have to believe in Christ before you die to be saved. The problem both groups have is understanding the remedial chastising of the fiery judgments of God which are for the purpose of purification and sanctification of them that are so judged ...




1 Cor 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.





To bad so few Christians are willing or able to come to a knowledge of this truth. Nevertheless, Gods will be done ...

Amen and Selah ...
I think you have that backwards.

And if you put Calvinism and Arminianism together you get SEMI-PELAGIANISM....
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Old 11-15-2009, 01:09 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Agreed, God does not lie.

You intimate that Peter's use of "any" and "all" is directed at Christians?

If your answer is in the affirm, how can this passage make any sense?
Did not God harden the heart Israel so that they would not believe and thus killed Christ for the reconciling of the world? And will he not also save them in the end?

Jhn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:26-32
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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