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Old 11-15-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I think you have that backwards.

And if you put Calvinism and Arminianism together you get SEMI-PELAGIANISM....

Hardly ... Most Universal reconciliationists teach that faith is a gift, and that mankind cannot choose to believe in God unless they are quickened first by the spirit and given faith by the spirit of Christ. Also most of us teach that Salvation in all its aspects is a free gift, and not by works at all. Whereas Pelagianism teaches that Christ only provided the example whereby men ought to live in order to have faith and save themselves by following his example by works. Now there are some who believe in the eventual salvation of all, and who are in effect are also semi-Pelagianists, but they are by far the fewer in number by comparison.
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:36 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Agreed, God does not lie.

You intimate that Peter's use of "any" and "all" is directed at Christians?

If your answer is in the affirm, how can this passage make any sense?
Because all the Epistles are targeted at Christians not non-believers.....They are trying to Edify and educate the Christian body...it is the Christian body's job to spread the Gospel.....There are many Arminianistic scriptures and many Calvinistic scriptures in the Bible...this is where logic and reason come into play in order to reconcile them...
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:42 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I Disagree ... What if God chooses to have mercy on all men not just believers? And what if he chooses to have mercy on a few now, and later on the many? What if, as i believe to be true, "us-ward" means all men in the dispensation of the fullness of times, but only believers now in the ages? This can also be true according to what you have posted. Its just looking at it from another perspective which is also based on further exegesis of scripture, such as 1 Tim 4:10 ... And there are countless scriptures which state that God is in fact going to save all men, and reconcile all things to himself through Christ, so that all kindred of all nations and all things in the heavens and in the earth will be brought back into harmony with God. The only scriptures that seem to contradict these understandings outright are the ones that have been mistranslated from the original texts wherein the Greek words aion and its adjective forms aionios and aionion and the Hebrew word olam are concerned ... Once the true understanding of what those words in fact mean is discerned, then all the sudden the concept of eternal damnation practically ceases to exist in light of the prevailing doctrine of universal reconciliation found throughout the texts of the bible in both old and new testaments alike.

Understanding this it becomes obvious the reason why the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries AD believe in the doctrine of Universal reconciliation, or apocatastasis as it was known then by the native Greek speaking eastern churches and theological seminaries. Also it is no wonder why the capital of the pagan world of the time(Carthage/Rome) and the theological school that existed therein believed in eternal torture, because of the fact that they were not native Greek speaking peoples but where in fact native Latin speaking peoples of the west.

Amen and Selah ...
1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)


10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

As i said in other posts....There is a difference between Temporal Salvation and Eternal Salvation...if one understands the terms then the contradictions melt away.
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
OK you believe God desires none perish.

Do you believe God desires to save all men?

(Personally I think these are the same thing)
Here is a reprint from my response in post #164:

"Perhaps. As stated, I'm just a layman.

Taken in scriptural context, the 'wills' (desires) of God are as follows:

- God's decretive will (desire), the will (desire) by which God brings to pass whatsoever he decrees.

- God's preceptive will (desire), God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the power but not the right to break.

- God's will (desire) of disposition, describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what God finds pleasing.

Which 'will' (desires) is/are to be applied to which scripture?"
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)


10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

As i said in other posts....There is a difference between Temporal Salvation and Eternal Salvation...if one understands the terms then the contradictions melt away.

Too bad the apostles didn't think to write anything about Temporal Salvation and Eternal Salvation or the difference between the two in the bible ... Or do you have a verse you can refer me to? The apostles must have been trying to confuse people because the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries certainly didn't recognize a difference either. Or do you have an early church father who wrote about it?
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Because all the Epistles are targeted at Christians not non-believers.....They are trying to Edify and educate the Christian body...it is the Christian body's job to spread the Gospel.....There are many Arminianistic scriptures and many Calvinistic scriptures in the Bible...this is where logic and reason come into play in order to reconcile them...
Would you characterize a Christian as one who has undergone conversion?
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Did not God harden the heart Israel so that they would not believe and thus killed Christ for the reconciling of the world? And will he not also save them in the end?

Jhn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:26-32
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
not all those decended from Abraham are Isreal.....
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:57 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Hardly ... Most Universal reconciliationists teach that faith is a gift, and that mankind cannot choose to believe in God unless they are quickened first by the spirit and given faith by the spirit of Christ. Also most of us teach that Salvation in all its aspects is a free gift, and not by works at all. Whereas Pelagianism teaches that Christ only provided the example whereby men ought to live in order to have faith and save themselves by following his example by works. Now there are some who believe in the eventual salvation of all, and who are in effect are also semi-Pelagianists, but they are by far the fewer in number by comparison.
My Appologies..i must have misunderstood you....but, Calvin does teach that unless God calls one, he cannot believe until the spirit is regenerated.
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:59 PM
 
Location: US
26,377 posts, read 13,989,692 times
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Too bad the apostles didn't think to write anything about Temporal Salvation and Eternal Salvation or the difference between the two in the bible ... Or do you have a verse you can refer me to? The apostles must have been trying to confuse people because the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries certainly didn't recognize a difference either. Or do you have an early church father who wrote about it?
It is called systematic theology...reason and logic...simple.
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Old 11-15-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Would you characterize a Christian as one who has undergone conversion?
yes.
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