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Old 10-21-2009, 08:27 AM
 
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Bottom line, either Calvinists believe that God created some human beings for the sole purpose of being in an eternal hell of some sort or they don't.

Which is it?
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Bottom line, either Calvinists believe that God created some human beings for the sole purpose of being in an eternal hell of some sort or they don't.

Which is it?
Well there are different degrees of Calvinism so you will get conflicting viewpoints. I believe that God predestines those He saves to do His bidding on this planet in His name thus giving Him the glory and gives the rest of humanity every opportunity through His creation, our conscience etc....to know Him and to repent.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well there are different degrees of Calvinism so you will get conflicting viewpoints. I believe that God predestines those He saves to do His bidding on this planet in His name thus giving Him the glory and gives the rest of humanity every opportunity through His creation, our conscience etc....to know Him and to repent.

So the OP is about a degree of calvinism you do not agree with?
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
So the OP is about a degree of calvinism you do not agree with?
Well he is arguing an infinite argument with a finite point of view but I recognize "hyper calvinism" in his thread which have doctrines that I don't agree with at all like "double predestination"
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:48 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Pcamps I have had enough of your ridiculous strawmans. ask a question but stop putting words in people's mouths
Fundy no strawman at all . Please explain what you actually mean by "your sense of justice is not necessarily God's sense of justice" ?.

I know what you mean because you have said it over and over again on this forum so no it's not a strawman.



The scripture you use to back up your argument is from Isaiah 55

My ways are not your ways ways and mt thoughts are not your thoughts.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Germany
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You are arguing an infinite question using a finite, limited, fallen basis of understanding? That's not logical.
the bible is written in human language, if all the words there; such as mercy, justness, love have not the meaning there as they have according to common sense, why should God have inspired the bible.

If God's love is according to common sense unimaginable hate, God's mercy extremest cruelness, God's justness the vilest devilishness, what sense does the bible make then?

If men had no sense for justness and what is right or wrong, how could we held accountable for what we do?

Who with a sane mind, could endless torment call just?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the bible is written in human language, if all the words there; such as mercy, justness, love have not the meaning there as they have according to common sense, why should God have inspired the bible.

If God's love is according to common sense unimaginable hate, God's mercy extremest cruelness, God's justness the vilest devilishness, what sense does the bible make then?

If men had no sense for justness and what is right or wrong, how could we held accountable for what we do?

Who with a sane mind, could endless torment call just?
I don't argue from that standpoint

He has made known to us only what He wants us to know through scripture and our conscience doesn't necessarily mean we know everything of God-Who's definition of justness?

(Romans 9:18-22)

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

(Isaiah 45:9)

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well he is arguing an infinite argument with a finite point of view but I recognize "hyper calvinism" in his thread which have doctrines that I don't agree with at all like "double predestination"

To some level I can agree with you. I understand the assertion that if God actually does predestine man to sin then punishes him for that sin, then God has defined what justice is so then trying to say that it is not justice is pointless.

From the double predestination calvinists point of view the argument has no merit because they take that position of God being the one that defines something beyond our understanding.

I actually agree with that, if I am saying something you believe. It is why I know that people who believe such things need to be reminded that there is absolutely nothing they can do to prove God has not predestined them to eternal misery.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Who's definition of justness? I don't argue from that standpoint

(Romans 9:18-22)

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

(Isaiah 45:9)

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?

What is your defintion of justice Fundy?

What do you think God's definition of justice is?

Are these two definitions the same or different?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
What is your defintion of justice Fundy?

What do you think God's definition of justice is?

Are these two definitions the same or different?
If I thought God was only just and no other qualities then I will be heading to hell

Justice is whatever God says no matter how much I disagree or could even abhor it. If God said, it was just for babies to go to hell then it is just. What am I to do. I am bound by scripture.
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