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Old 11-16-2009, 05:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Not one single scripture you have quoted says "God chooses who he wishes for salvation".

Here's a couple that says that He desires all to be saved

John 3 : 16 For God so loved the world

John 12 : 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

1 Tim 4 : 9.10 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Exactly pcamps. People assume that those not chosen out of the called are not saved. You won't find a verse in the bible that says the non-elect are not saved, nor that the un-chosen are not saved. The reason you won't find those verses is because:

A. They don't exist
and
B. That would contradict the verses that say God will save all
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Eph 1-4 Even as He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love he Predistined us for ADOPTION as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of His will.
I want a report on how that hat tasted.

James 2-5, Has God not CHOSEN those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kindom.

Take another bite out of that hat please.

1 Peter 2-9 But you are a CHOSEN race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who CALLED you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Are you just about finnished with that hat yet?

John 10- 26- 29. But you do not believe because you are not part of My flock, My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has GIVEN them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.

There are many other verses in the bible that teach this same eternal truth about Man's relationship to God. All the words that clearly teach this are there for anyone to see. Tell me does a child chose his adopted Father? Never does that happen. We are adopted by God.as it says.
We are chosen by God as His people. This is a constant theme all throughout the entire bible. God's chosen people. Who are they? Well they are the people God Chooses. How could anyone even with the slightest understanding of the English say any different?
There is no denying that God chooses a people for himself - the elect; chosen few. But the point pcamps is making is what are they chosen for? The choice is not about who goes to heaven and who goes to burn in a fabled hell. They are chosen to be the firstfruits in God's great harvest of the earth. Yet after the firstfruits are collected there is still more work to be done...
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If i may ... Though you did not post this reponse to me, i would like to give my two cents.

Take this verse in contrast with ...

1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So If fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, yet one who fears is not perfect in love, then how can these things be reconciled in our understanding. I believe that fear of the lord is referring to a sense of reverence for the power of God, more than it is thinking him willing to cause you to suffer for ever. And if that reverence is only the beginning of wisdom, then what is the fullness of wisdom? I believe that(the fullness of wisdom) is to be in perfected love, and in having the knowledge of Gods purpose in his wrath and fiery judgments. Once we understand the meaning of Gods fiery judgments as being for the refinement and sanctification and cleaning and purification of those who are judged so that the carnal mind might be destroyed in order that the spiritual mind might be renewed and quickened, then we are able to know the full wisdom of God in his righteous judgments and are thereby able to love our enemies and pray for them having faith Gods will be done in their lives unto their own salvation whether it be by their being quickened now in this life or renewed by fire in the judgments in the great day of the lord.

So it is not in vanity that i love my enemies and those that do not believe who might be enemies of my faith, nor is it vanity that i should pray for them and bless them in the name of Christ. I can rest assured in my prayers that Gods perfect love will in one way or another lead to their being reconciled unto God. Else why should i love one who does not believe? Because when they die if they were to suffer for evermore then it would be cause for me to grieve and mourn them and my love would be a vexation. And if i pray for their slavation and they die before confessing Christ as their savior then my prayers were in vain if they are after death forevermore without hope.

God bless ...
Yes, thanks Ironmaw.

Fear of the lord is talking about respect, reverence, and humility. God made us and He can take us out if He wishes. We should all be God-fearing people. This does not mean "fear" as in some sort of terrifying horror film, but simply out of acknowledgement that God's power is awesome and He is in control.

Scripture also says:
Psalm 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children

Psalm 118:4 Let those who fear the LORD say: "His love endures forever."

Psalm 147:11 the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love


So we see the fear of the lord leads wisdom, and it also leads to people loving the lord. Can you truly love something you are afraid of? No. This fear of the lord is simply talking about respect, reverence, humility.
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Fear of the lord is talking about respect, reverence, and humility. God made us and He can take us out if He wishes. We should all be God-fearing people. This does not mean "fear" as in some sort of terrifying horror film, but simply out of acknowledgement that God's power is awesome and He is in control.
Yes it does mean fear as it is normally thought about . . . not some rationalization to excuse the existence of a monster God. The ET'ers definitely believe in such a heinous God that should be feared because of all the things attributed to Him in the OT and the apostasy of hell and eternal damnation.

The OT is merely important to validate the existence, mission and importance of Jesus. Jesus came to FULFILL the prophesis in the OT and remove the veil of ignorance about God that exists from reading those savage descriptions of the nature of God. The OT was necessary to establish the expectation of Jesus and predict the way His life and death would occur and the impact He would have for millennia. Jesus fulfilled all the expectations of His day and for every day since for 2000+ years. That is what fulfilling the OT means and that is what validates Christianity.

The veil of ignorance that blinded our ancestors to God's TRUE NATURE from the misinterpretations of the OT was lifted by Jesus and His example and teaching. The OT has no further role in understanding the NATURE of God . . . only righteousness and providing hope . . . Jesus is the TRUE NATURE of God . . . not the heinous misunderstandings of the OT. The prophesies being fulfilled for 2000+ years despite the errors in the OT are sufficient validation.1 Corinthians 2:16

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

All those heinous things attributed to God in the OT were no part of God . . . they were evil and only humans do evil. The biggest weapon against God is human ignorance and convincing humans that to remain ignorant is what God wants and prefers. Calvinists, Literalists and Fundamentalists have convinced the ignorant that fear of God is what God wants . . . BUT that eliminates any true "love of God and each other." 1 John 4:7-8 (King James Version)

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


1 John 4:18

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.
He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The veil of ignorance that covers the reading of the OT reinforces and perpetuates the primitive motivation of fear of wrath and punishment . . . instead of God's loving concern and desire for us to avoid the natural consequences of our failure to mature spiritually. Reading through the mind and heart of Jesus removes that veil and allows us with the help of the Holy Spirit to see the underlying message of God's love correctly as maturing children of God. Jesus came specifically to remove that veil of ignorance and do away with such immature primitive impressions of God. Ephesians 4:14-15 (King James Version)

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes, thanks Ironmaw.

Fear of the lord is talking about respect, reverence, and humility. God made us and He can take us out if He wishes. We should all be God-fearing people. This does not mean "fear" as in some sort of terrifying horror film, but simply out of acknowledgement that God's power is awesome and He is in control.
Hmmmm.......God can take us out if He wants like the flooding the inhabitants of the entire plant yet that should not be perceived as a horror film but that He is in control?

If you saw a wall of water over 100 stories high heading to you and your loved ones at 100 mph ....what would you call that?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 11-16-2009 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post

So we see the fear of the lord leads wisdom, and it also leads to people loving the lord. Can you truly love something you are afraid of? No. This fear of the lord is simply talking about respect, reverence, humility.
First you say, one cannot love God if we fear Him yet you go on to acknowledge that there IS fear of God but that's not the right fear somehow there is more than one fear? since you make no distinction between believers and unbelievers how can you have different fears? because unbelievers do no not have respect, reverence, humility for God it is misinterpreted by your standards. So which is it, is there fear of the Lord or not? you can't have both. You can't say, well there is fear but there isn't fear. Either there is or isn't
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
First you say, one cannot love God if we fear Him yet you go on to acknowledge that there IS fear of God but that's not the right fear somehow there is more than one fear? it is misinterpreted by your standards. So which is it, is there fear of the Lord or not? you can't have both. You can't say, well there is fear but there isn't fear. Either there is or isn't

Fundy, reread my posts, you misunderstood. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there are two different fears being talked about here. Fear has meaning of "reverence" and also a meaning of "being terrified".

One cannot truly love something you are terrified of. Like others have pointed out, Perfect love casts out fear. But you can love something you have respect and reverence for. Are you in awe and reverence of God? Or are you terrified of God?

Read it in the amplified if you want the precise meaning:

Prov 9:10 The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord is the beginning (the chief and choice part) of Wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight and understanding.

We are also told that all will eventually fear Him, specifically all will show Him reverence and worship. It doesn't mean all will be terrified of Him. It means all will be in awe of Him and worship Him and even love Him.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not reverence and glorify Your name, O Lord [giving You honor and praise in worship]? For You only are holy. All the nations shall come and pay homage and adoration to You, for Your just judgments (Your righteous sentences and deeds) have been made known and displayed.

The really interesting part is when you look at these two verses together, you must realize that eventually all will gain wisdom. All will come to a knowledge of the truth, just like 1 Tim 2:4 says.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
One cannot truly love something you are terrified of. Like others have pointed out, Perfect love casts out fear. But you can love something you have respect and reverence for. Are you in awe and reverence of God? Or are you terrified of God?


Ok since there are two fears.....Who has the "negative" fear? Who is terrified of Him? and why?
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Ok since there are two fears.....Who has the "negative" fear? Who is terrified of Him? and why?
Who is terrified of God?

I would guess People who don't understand that all of God's ways are kind and loving. They do not have the beginning of wisdom that is gained by having reverent respect of God - they have not gained an understanding of what His love is yet. Probably a person who believes God is going to fry them forever if they do the wrong thing.

Others don't even have knowledge of God at all (atheists for example), so they don't have fear in either sense of the word.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Who is terrified of God?

I would guess People who don't understand that all of God's ways are kind and loving. They do not have the beginning of wisdom that is gained by having reverent respect of God - they have not gained an understanding of what His love is yet. Probably a person who believes God is going to fry them forever if they do the wrong thing.

Others don't even have knowledge of God at all (atheists for example), so they don't have fear in either sense of the word.
You said there were two different fears? What are the two different fears? and which groups have these fears
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