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Old 10-21-2009, 08:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
If I thought God was only just and no other qualities then I will be heading to hell

Justice is whatever God says no matter how much I disagree or could even abhor it. If God said, it was just for babies to go to hell then it is just. What am I to do. I am bound by scripture.
But don't you have an inner sense of justice, that for example tells you "babies going to hell" cannot be justice? Therefore God must not do that?

FYI Scripture does not say that babies go to hell.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
To some level I can agree with you. I understand the assertion that if God actually does predestine man to sin then punishes him for that sin, then God has defined what justice is so then trying to say that it is not justice is pointless.

From the double predestination calvinists point of view the argument has no merit because they take that position of God being the one that defines something beyond our understanding.

I actually agree with that, if I am saying something you believe. It is why I know that people who believe such things need to be reminded that there is absolutely nothing they can do to prove God has not predestined them to eternal misery.
Well from my standpoint of "double predestination" it is how it is worded. Most Christians believe there is a hell and God is omniscient and He knew those who will go to hell before He created them but created them anyway so in a way God "predestined" people to hell Even though God created them knowing they will go to hell doesn't mean God predestined them there, those people had every opportunity to repent and put their trust in Christ, people still had a choice and rejected God. Human beings and human beings alone bare the sole responsibility of their damned fate.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
But don't you have an inner sense of justice, that for example tells you "babies going to hell" cannot be justice? Therefore God must not do that?

FYI Scripture does not say that babies go to hell.
I know babies don't go to hell because I don't see that in scripture, it's an example
"an inner justice" So I am more just than God? If scripture was clear in saying, babies go to hell....then what?
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Just the presence of God allows for sin. We are all sinners-we are all vile, horrible human beings who is only capable of wickedness and evil (remember Noah's ark) when we do bad that is our true nature showing but when we do good that is the grace of God restraining our hearts. God restrains our hearts from doing bad, He restrains those from their true nature as He turns others over through judgment to their sinful nature thus hardening their hearts (remember Pharoh). That is God's sovereignty. He chooses who He will do this to and He has every right.

We ALL deserve hell and God would be justified in sending us ALL there but God shows His grace and mercy by keeping some even though that some deserves hell as well. Is this fair? No and I am glad God isn't fair because if He was fair then we would ALL go to hell
OK your Calvinist irrationality is showing again.

Why would God create the whole human race in a state somehow "deserving" to be tortured for eternity? How can you not see that God is responsible for this state, not man?

You think if God was "fair", we would all go to "hell"!??! Sorry, this is completely irrational. If that was really the case, God wouldn't have even bothered creating us in the first place. Why create something so awful that it simply has to be tortured forever. And then claim to call it justice, while simultaneously claiming you are the most loving being in the universe?!? Its complete nonsense. Basically you are saying God can redefine words to mean the opposite of what we understand them to mean. Like Sven said, why bother giving us the bible then, why bother giving us language, if its all meaningless.

Now comes the need for scripture. Show me in scripture where it says we all deserve an eternal hell of torture. So far no one has been able to show me that scripture.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:27 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I know babies don't go to hell because I don't see that in scripture, it's an example
"an inner justice" So I am more just than God? If scripture was clear in saying, babies go to hell....then what?
Then God is full of contradictions, but there is nothing we can do about it.

Your argument seems to be exactly that. God can contradict himself and there is nothing we can do about it. Sure I suppose that could be true, but if that is the case then we are all doomed, because God can then contradict himself about saving anyone. And I guess you would be happy with it.

Lets continue with this example. Suppose there is a scripture:

Justice 1:1 Babies that die go into an eternal hell of fiery torture.
2 This is loving and justice.

Shouldn't we then be required to redefine justice to something else, namely the complete opposite of common human understanding?

You are arguing absurdity because words can now change meaning to their complete opposite.

This is what the Calvinist does in my OP. God predestines man to sin. God predestines the same man to an eternal torture because of the sin the man was predestined to do. And this is justice.

Its a complete absurdity and is simple word-twisting and doublethink.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
OK your Calvinist irrationality is showing again.

Why would God create the whole human race in a state somehow "deserving" to be tortured for eternity? How can you not see that God is responsible for this state, not man?

You think if God was "fair", we would all go to "hell"!??! Sorry, this is completely irrational. If that was really the case, God wouldn't have even bothered creating us in the first place. Why create something so awful that it simply has to be tortured forever. And then claim to call it justice, while simultaneously claiming you are the most loving being in the universe?!? Its complete nonsense. Basically you are saying God can redefine words to mean the opposite of what we understand them to mean. Like Sven said, why bother giving us the bible then, why bother giving us language, if its all meaningless.

Now comes the need for scripture. Show me in scripture where it says we all deserve an eternal hell of torture. So far no one has been able to show me that scripture.
You see your "rationality" IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!!!!!!!!!!! I can't use reason only scripture and reason from scripture using a systematic theology. Adam and Eve reasoned themselves right out of the garden.

If I see it in scripture I believe it but if I come across something in scripture that doesn't make sense to me then I look all through scripture help me "rationalize" it and if I still can't make heads or tails of it, then I don't fill in the blanks and say, what if, why would. I would leave it at that and not put my authority over God's
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then God is full of contradictions, but there is nothing we can do about it.

Your argument seems to be exactly that. God can contradict himself and there is nothing we can do about it. Sure I suppose that could be true, but if that is the case then we are all doomed, because God can then contradict himself about saving anyone. And I guess you would be happy with it.

Lets continue with this example. Suppose there is a scripture:

Justice 1:1 Babies that die go into an eternal hell of fiery torture.
2 This is loving and justice.

Shouldn't we then be required to redefine justice to something else, namely the complete opposite of common human understanding?

You are arguing absurdity because words can now change meaning to their complete opposite.

This is what the Calvinist does in my OP. God predestines man to sin. God predestines the same man to an eternal torture because of the sin the man was predestined to do. And this is justice.

Its a complete absurdity and is simple word-twisting and doublethink.
God isn't but you are. You are so busy trying to rationalize what God is saying that you don't just stop at scripture but try to fill in the blanks. Does it seem irrational to the average human being including myself....OF COURSE!!! but that is not for us to decide what is rational. You can't know what is rational nor can you have an "inner justness" somehow separate from God's without God's word. You are just a clay pot.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:37 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well from my standpoint of "double predestination" it is how it is worded. Most Christians believe there is a hell and God is omniscient and He knew those who will go to hell before He created them but created them anyway so in a way God "predestined" people to hell Even though God created them knowing they will go to hell doesn't mean God predestined them there, those people had every opportunity to repent and put their trust in Christ, people still had a choice and rejected God. Human beings and human beings alone bare the sole responsibility of their damned fate.

Well, depends on who you talk to I suppose, from hearing calvinists themselves who believe in double predestination mans choice has nothing to do with it. My reminder does not appear to directly apply to what you believe, but it may indirectly.

While a person can think that man chooses his destiny, if any type of realm exists where there is forever no hope of God residing in that realm then there is little assurance that a person has absolutely made the correct choices, they are destined to have to wait and see, but nothing absolutely assures escape from such a realm.

To me, what God defines anything as is an argument in futility. I can take the same position. Even if the strawmen against Christian Universalism were not strawmen, if God decided to Save all "Anyway" then who can do anything about it?
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, depends on who you talk to I suppose, from hearing calvinists themselves who believe in double predestination mans choice has nothing to do with it. My reminder does not appear to directly apply to what you believe, but it may indirectly.

While a person can think that man chooses his destiny, if any type of realm exists where there is forever no hope of God residing in that realm then there is little assurance that a person has absolutely made the correct choices, they are destined to have to wait and see, but nothing absolutely assures escape from such a realm.

To me, what God defines anything as is an argument in futility. I can take the same position. Even if the strawmen against Christian Universalism were not strawmen, if God decided to Save all "Anyway" then who can do anything about it?
Trust me I get into many debates with Calvinists as well because scripture clearly shows that man does have a choice. How does God's sovereignty and man's free will work together for salvation? I have not a clue but it is scriptural and I believe it works just don't know how but I have faith in God that it is good and just.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,145 posts, read 19,964,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
If I thought God was only just and no other qualities then I will be heading to hell

Justice is whatever God says no matter how much I disagree or could even abhor it. If God said, it was just for babies to go to hell then it is just. What am I to do. I am bound by scripture.
That is absurd and you have no basis to say or believe that and no scripture to justify that , yet i suppose you have to believe it because if you don't the whole calvin thing collapses like a stack of cards.

Don't you see that a just God is never going to do anything but what is just , when you are implying if God says it's just to send babies to hell then it's just, then we would know for certain God is not just. Why because He is not just , but thank God that the Lord God is not a Calvinist.

Love is love , justice is justice, mercy is mercy . Why do you change the meaning of these attributes of God to fit your religion ?.

Read Foxes book of Martyrs, those who were metering out this supposed called justice you believe in , believed no different to you .

Last edited by pcamps; 10-21-2009 at 09:03 AM..
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