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Old 11-25-2009, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I understand them, they say what they say.....and the translations and definitions of the greek words are what they are..........
So do you believe people are tossed into a literal lake of fire? At the very least you must realize it is not a literal lake, because a literal lake has WATER in it. Since the "lake" part of the lake of fire is a symbol, it is also quite possible the "fire" part of the lake of fire is ALSO a symbol (especially since Revelations is a book of symbols).

If you read the lake of fire verses closely you will see the only people specifically who are tormented "eternally" are the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. It doesn't specify the duration of everyone else thrown in.


BTW When you quote scripture its alot easier to read without all the Strong's numbers thrown in.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:25 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Mar 9:43 AndG2532 ifG1437 thyG4675 handG5495 offendG4624 thee,G4571 cut it off:G609 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 intoG1519 lifeG2222 maimed,G2948 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 handsG5495 to goG565 intoG1519 hell,G1067 intoG1519 theG3588 fireG4442 that never shall be quenched:G762
Mar 9:44 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570
Mar 9:45 AndG2532 ifG1437 thyG4675 footG4228 offendG4624 thee,G4571 cut it off:G609 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 haltG5560 intoG1519 life,G2222 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 feetG4228 to be castG906 intoG1519 hell,G1067 intoG1519 theG3588 fireG4442 that never shall be quenched:G762
Mar 9:46 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570
Mar 9:47 AndG2532 ifG1437 thineG4675 eyeG3788 offendG4624 thee,G4571 pluck it out:G1544 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 with one eye,G3442 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 eyesG3788 to be castG906 intoG1519 hellG1067 fire:G4442
Mar 9:48 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570
These verses are talking about Gehenna, and are again symbolic - because no one literally cuts off their hand when they sin.

Furthermore, don't forget the next verse:

Mark 9:49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

Everyone is salted with fire. OH NO everyone is going to hell I guess...

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Old 11-25-2009, 10:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Mar 9:44 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570
Do you really think hell is full of eternal worms? This is speaking about maggots and worms that eat dead bodies. Gehenna was full of the bodies of criminals and other undesirables. The worms didn't die out because there was always fresh worm food. Gehenna is a nice green grassy valley now, yet I bet some of the earth worms there are descendants of the worms that ate the criminals. They dieth not.

Unquenchable does not equal eternal. Unquenchable simply means it cannot be put out. Most forest fires are unquenchable because they get too big for the firefighting crews to put out. Yet they do go out - on their own, when they are finished consuming all they can consume. No forest fire is eternal.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Again, you misapply scripture, he is talking about works vs. grace.............
Of course, He justifies the ungodly by grace in the accomplished work of Christ! You can believe and trust in the work of Christ (the Gospel), it's true!

Did someone tell you that God justifies the ungodly by their works? If so, don't believe it, it's a false gospel.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:43 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,115 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Of course, He justifies the ungodly by grace in the accomplished work of Christ! You can believe and trust in the work of Christ (the Gospel), it's true!

Did someone tell you that God justifies the ungodly by their works? If so, don't believe it, it's a false gospel.
Obviously Richard somewhere in his mind believes he was powerful enough to save himself

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:16 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Obviously Richard somewhere in his mind believes he was powerful enough to save himself

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us
The issue IMO is that they do not believe that it applies for "all". The Calvinist says "some" or "few", or even "all of a select group". On the other hand, the Arminian says the work of Christ didn't accomplish anything, unless..... (fill in the blank depending on your denominational doctrines). They add to the Gospel. But Jesus said otherwise. He said His work (in the Gospel) is complete, to believe in Him and trust Him at His word. Jesus said it is finished!

And we know it is. God said that He wills all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth. That's why we proclaim the good news, to bring all to a full knowledge of the truth. God will make good on it, and through regeneration of the Holy Spirit, He will bring all to a saving knowledge of Christ and His work on the cross in the Gospel. But few believe God will actually do what He proclaims.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-25-2009 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:52 AM
 
Location: US
26,240 posts, read 13,909,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Of course, He justifies the ungodly by grace in the accomplished work of Christ! You can believe and trust in the work of Christ (the Gospel), it's true!

Did someone tell you that God justifies the ungodly by their works? If so, don't believe it, it's a false gospel.
He was saying that if you were going to follow the law to be justified you were required to fullfill the whole law, but, he points out that no one can follow the law completely to be justified and that you are only justified faith thru grace......i read everything that was before and after the verse that was quoted......
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:18 AM
 
Location: US
26,240 posts, read 13,909,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The issue IMO is that they do not believe that it applies for "all". The Calvinist says "some" or "few", or even "all of a select group". On the other hand, the Arminian says the work of Christ didn't accomplish anything, unless..... (fill in the blank depending on your denominational doctrines). They add to the Gospel. But Jesus said otherwise. He said His work (in the Gospel) is complete, to believe in Him and trust Him at His word. Jesus said it is finished!

And we know it is. God said that He wills all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth. That's why we proclaim the good news, to bring all to a full knowledge of the truth. God will make good on it, and through regeneration of the Holy Spirit, He will bring all to a saving knowledge of Christ and His work on the cross in the Gospel. But few believe God will actually do what He proclaims.
Mat 22:14 For G1063 many G4183 are G1526 called, G2822 but G1161 few G3641 are chosen. G1588


G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

G2821
κλῆσις
klēsis
klay'-sis
From a shorter form of G2564; an invitation (figuratively): - calling.

G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to "call" (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

G2753
κελεύω
keleuō
kel-yoo'-o
From a primary word κέλλω kellō (to urge on); "hail"; to incite by word, that is, order: - bid, (at, give) command (-ment).

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

G3004
λέγω
legō
leg'-o
A primary verb; properly to "lay" forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:46 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Mat 22:14 For G1063 many G4183 are G1526 called, G2822 but G1161 few G3641 are chosen. G1588

G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

G2821
κλῆσις
klēsis
klay'-sis
From a shorter form of G2564; an invitation (figuratively): - calling.

G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to "call" (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

G2753
κελεύω
keleuō
kel-yoo'-o
From a primary word κέλλω kellō (to urge on); "hail"; to incite by word, that is, order: - bid, (at, give) command (-ment).

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

G3004
λέγω
legō
leg'-o
A primary verb; properly to "lay" forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
I believe Matt 22:14 also. I believe this too:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God;

Do you believe this?

And who does the calling go out to?:

2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'

The calling goes out to the world whom God reconciled to Himself. It is not only for us (those with believe):

2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,

but also for them (those who do not believe, as yet):

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

Calling is founded in the eternal decrees of God. I believe the scriptures teach that in time, all will hear (spiritually) the calling, through regeneration of the Holy Spirit. And you already know the reason I believe this :

1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--

Anyway, hope you and yours had a wonderful Thanksgiving! I'll be fasting for a month...LOL

Alabama (pray for the Tide to kick butt...LOL)
Auburn
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:33 PM
 
Location: US
26,240 posts, read 13,909,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Do you really think hell is full of eternal worms? This is speaking about maggots and worms that eat dead bodies. Gehenna was full of the bodies of criminals and other undesirables. The worms didn't die out because there was always fresh worm food. Gehenna is a nice green grassy valley now, yet I bet some of the earth worms there are descendants of the worms that ate the criminals. They dieth not.

Unquenchable does not equal eternal. Unquenchable simply means it cannot be put out. Most forest fires are unquenchable because they get too big for the firefighting crews to put out. Yet they do go out - on their own, when they are finished consuming all they can consume. No forest fire is eternal.

Mar 9:48 Where G3699 their G846 worm G4663 dieth G5053 not, G3756 and G2532 theG3588 fire G4442 is not G3756 quenched. G4570

G4570
σβέννυμι
sbennumi
sben'-noo-mee
A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench.

G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.

Never quenched, looks pretty eternal to me.........the greek word for go out or quench coupled with the greek word for never .....yup, it seems pretty eternal to me.....now, either you are very ignorant of greek and hebrew and common logic or you are just deliberately propagateing this heresy......which is it?

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
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