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Old 10-21-2009, 08:55 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Trust me I get into many debates with Calvinists as well because scripture clearly shows that man does have a choice. How does God's sovereignty and man's free will work together for salvation? I have not a clue but it is scriptural and I believe it works just don't know how but I have faith in God that it is good and just.

An assertion of scriptural clarity is also pointless.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
God isn't but you are. You are so busy trying to rationalize what God is saying that you don't just stop at scripture but try to fill in the blanks. Does it seem irrational to the average human being including myself....OF COURSE!!! but that is not for us to decide what is rational. You can't know what is rational nor can you have an "inner justness" somehow separate from God's without God's word. You are just a clay pot.
I think I will just have to accept you are happy with your irrational beliefs. BTW I fully accept I am a clay pot. In fact I fully accept I don't have a free will. But that is another topic for another thread.

You don't think there is an "inner sense of justice" that God has imparted in us? What do you think our conscious is? Kids can know when they have done something wrong without reading God's word. We all have a God-given consious that gives us that feeling of guilt when we know we did something we shouldn't have.

"God isn't but you are". Of course God isn't contradictory, but the Calvinist representation of Him surely is.

Punishing someone eternally for doing exactly as you intended is not justice. Punishing someone infinitely for finite crimes is not justice.

This is contradictory to the meaning of justice and the meaning of love.

Any other Calvinists want to comment on this? Perhaps not, as there's not much else to be said. I think it must come down to this: Either you accept irrational contradictions, or you do not.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:06 AM
 
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Let me this from a different angle.

Another question for Calvinists:

Is God unloving sometimes?
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:47 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Let me this from a different angle.

Another question for Calvinists:

Is God unloving sometimes?
I'm not a calvinists , but i would guess if you thinking torturing is loving because God's ways are not our ways , neither is thoughts our thoughts i would say no God is not unloving , because torturing someone is loving.

Can i get an Amen
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
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If God said, it was just for babies to go to hell then it is just. What am I to do. I am bound by scripture.
but you know that scripture can also be interpreted in favor for universalism or annihilation, so there is no clear support for the doctrine of everlasting torment, as the bible is at least ambigous on that subject you have no rational reason to support the doctrine of everlasting torment, it is morally indefensible and at least not clearly taught in scripture.

you say when God is burning new born children in hell forevermore and calls it just, it were just.

But the point where your argumentation lacks is, that this is totally contrary to God's character as presented in scripture, this is what scripture says:

Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Tophet in the valley of the son of Hinnom (which is Gehenna), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Psalm 103:9,10

Jehovah is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and of abundant mercy. He will not always chasten, nor will He keep His anger forever.

Isaiah 57:16

For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but you know that scripture can also be interpreted in favor for universalism or annihilation, so there is no clear support for the doctrine of everlasting torment, as the bible is at least ambigous on that subject you have no rational reason to support the doctrine of everlasting torment, it is morally indefensible and at least not clearly taught in scripture.
I think some people just think anything a god could do would be morally defensible, simply because he is a god. They then apply this to God described in the bible, while ignoring or redefining His character traits.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I think some people just think anything a god could do would be morally defensible, simply because he is a god. They then apply this to God described in the bible, while ignoring or redefining His character traits.
Again a strawman, you are confusuing the two, if God did something that went against His nature described in the bible then God ceases being God but if he did something that I find to be horrible without scriptural support then I am playing God, I think my way would be better than God's way.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
An assertion of scriptural clarity is also pointless.
I don't agree now if you don't agree with it then fine but scripture is my authority. It boils down to either you are right or I am?
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:07 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,451,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but you know that scripture can also be interpreted in favor for universalism or annihilation, so there is no clear support for the doctrine of everlasting torment, as the bible is at least ambigous on that subject you have no rational reason to support the doctrine of everlasting torment, it is morally indefensible and at least not clearly taught in scripture.

you say when God is burning new born children in hell forevermore and calls it just, it were just.

But the point where your argumentation lacks is, that this is totally contrary to God's character as presented in scripture, this is what scripture says:

Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Tophet in the valley of the son of Hinnom (which is Gehenna), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Psalm 103:9,10

Jehovah is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and of abundant mercy. He will not always chasten, nor will He keep His anger forever.

Isaiah 57:16

For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
No my point lacks against the character of god you create in your own mind

That is true but scripture is all I have and it doesn't there s truth in scripture.
Why does it always come back to hell? I wish you were right about no eternal hell but sorry I don't see it, what do you want me to say? IT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR BEYOND DAY that hell is real and eternal hell is just. I see hell in scripture and it harmonizes with God's character. Same way you have to harmonize to an atheist how a loving God can kill men, women and children, allow people to starve, little children to be raped. It is within God's character. You don't agree and that's fine.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-21-2009 at 11:19 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:08 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,225 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I don't agree now if you don't agree with it then fine but scripture is my authority. It boils down to either you are right or I am?

The assertion of scriptural clarity only comes from your current belief. I can say that scripture is clear from my point of view, so it is pointless.
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