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Old 11-30-2009, 11:35 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,200 posts, read 19,986,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You still don't get it.....that is sad.........it means there is no longer Jew or Gentile, they are one in Christ......And the author is talking to Christians....it is not talking about elect vs. non-elect.......in other words the believeing Gentiles has been grafted into the family of God and in essence become Jews....Because God did not forget the people He chose nor cancel out the convenant He made with Abraham....
You said there are 2 classes of people Jesus Died for , this is a lie and nowhere to be found in the scriptures. Of cause Paul is saying there is no longer jew or gentile in Christ , that is clear , and has nothing to do with what you are saying, which is there are 2 classes of people one being elected eternally and the other eternally damned.

The scriptures are clear He is the Savior of All , regardless of whether they all come or not is beside the point , i happen to believe they do according to the scripture, the scripture is crystal clear, "He is the Savior of All" . Can't you see you are deceiving yourself to believe otherwise , you know the scriptures say He's the Savior of All and you can't accept it , so you interpret the All to being "All of the chosen"

You are changing the good news to the world to the good news for the chosen .
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
where does it say they don't?
Your belief of God is that he is a sadistic retched monster who tortures babies ... That's is Sick and your false religion is sick. My baby brother died when he was two years old on my birthday ... You will go to hell before him my fried. And i don't even believe in hell. But if there is one, its for people who believe the way you do.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:30 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Your belief of God is that he is a sadistic retched monster who tortures babies ... That's is Sick and your false religion is sick. My baby brother died when he was two years old on my birthday ... You will go to hell before him my fried. And i don't even believe in hell. But if there is one, its for people who believe the way you do.
As vile and disturbing as some doctrines and beliefs are, the Gospel declares they were nailed to the cross with Christ, and that God freely justifies us and imputes Christ's righteousness to us. I know this firsthand, I'm one of those impious sinners that now believes in the Gospel:

Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

Thank God for Jesus!!
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,805 times
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Somewhere in one of the Timothy books it is stated that the christ died for all men, but it is added that, the death was especially for the church and that if he was lifted up ("if" in greek can refer to a definite certainty as well as a possibility) all men would be drawn to him. If he did not die for all, then the nothingness that the creation came out of, would be able to claim the "lost" and return them to non-existence in opposition to god's will and have the victory. Nothingness is represented, or personified by the satan. It exists as something that has no existence, so it was not made (how can nothing, you must lose the idea of blank space and raise its abstraction somewhat, beyond even what our word implies, have any "being?"). In the creation account (in opposition to the babylonian where the world is an off spring of chaos {nothingness} and ?-I forget) the first part of creation is chaos or unformed (god brought in the stuff, but the nothingness, as uncreated, came with it: it is unformed! The stuff is in that state, a state of nothingness! State as distinct from the thing! {you must remember that before all this there was only god-no space, time, rocky road, or babes) and the spirt ponders this in the tale, which implies the search for truth. Finding none, this chaos is rejected and order is brought in opposition to the chaos (represented by the water which god sets its limits), this is why the satan (nothingness/chaos) is found in the garden as nothingness accompanies us everywhere and we, for our part, have a desire to return there, as that is why it tempts us. When we sin we let this nothingness "leep" into existence (Kierkegaard's term) and claim us (if the christ had not shed his blood from before the creation, everything would have returned to nothingness, including you antichrist peoples). From the tale, one should be able to see that god, although he/she did not make this nothingness, he/she definitely rules it (read Job and see the satan as this nothingness and particularly note where god takes the rap for what has happened rather than blaming the nothingness), and as ruling over it, he/she uses it for he/she's purposes. The error of early calvinism was this predestination (election) of the race into these camps, it is there of course as that is a qualification of the god concept, but not prior to the christ in some remote distant "past" without looking toward the atonement, or in some sense of pure divine sovereignty, but the focus should have been on the christ being elected and predestinated and no one else is elected except by him (no she needed here) to the church. By adding all these hypothetical incidents one really blurs any doctrinal enlightenment. Obviously from the bible, no one comes to the father except by the son-his words, and no one knows the son except that the father draw him-his words, so that is just the way it is, if that bugs you find some other thing to believe in and stop making a fool of yourself. And, further, it is all left up to his choice, one must begin there. However, god is the living god not a static concept, so no one can bind god through some sort of doctrine that attempts to freeze god to some sort of course on into eternal time. He can change his mind (see Moses arguing with him/her over the destruction of the Jews-of course this is in our "time" and the story is for our benefit). God is above predestination not subject to it-except with his son. But, the church is the elect, or the called out ones, and it is god who decides who was, is and will be in it, before they decide. The one who is to become a christian, that one's decision follows god's decision for him, not the other way around.

I am adding a break as I get complaints about my writing! Here is a good way to remember the traditional calvinistic system from the synod of dort (please note, as with any system you can't buy some parts and throw out the rest. There is no such thing as a 3 point calvinist-that is just fiction. Like god, as a concept or system, if you lose part of it you have something but you don't have god).
1, T-total depravity of all people
2, U-unconditional election (not anything you can do for or against)
3. L-limited atonement (not everyone is saved, at least to the church-in historical dispute?)
4. I-irresistible grace (if called-all are called but few are chosen, are chosen, you will believe-so some of you atheists will change your mind somewhere down the road-haha)
5. P-perseverance of the saints (god will hold on to you despite all your sinning and god hating for eternity)

You can see that this spells tulip-now you are all officially brilliant dogmaticians, congratulations. Oh, if someone already put this up, there were a lot of pages on this one so I must confess I did not read them all, never mind.
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:55 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Somewhere in one of the Timothy books it is stated that the christ died for all men, but it is added that, the death was especially for the church and that if he was lifted up ("if" in greek can refer to a definite certainty as well as a possibility) all men would be drawn to him. If he did not die for all, then the nothingness that the creation came out of, would be able to claim the "lost" and return them to non-existence in opposition to god's will and have the victory. Nothingness is represented, or personified by the satan. It exists as something that has no existence, so it was not made (how can nothing, you must lose the idea of blank space and raise its abstraction somewhat, beyond even what our word implies, have any "being?"). In the creation account (in opposition to the babylonian where the world is an off spring of chaos {nothingness} and ?-I forget) the first part of creation is chaos or unformed (god brought in the stuff, but the nothingness, as uncreated, came with it: it is unformed! The stuff is in that state, a state of nothingness! State as distinct from the thing! {you must remember that before all this there was only god-no space, time, rocky road, or babes) and the spirt ponders this in the tale, which implies the search for truth. Finding none, this chaos is rejected and order is brought in opposition to the chaos (represented by the water which god sets its limits), this is why the satan (nothingness/chaos) is found in the garden as nothingness accompanies us everywhere and we, for our part, have a desire to return there, as that is why it tempts us. When we sin we let this nothingness "leep" into existence (Kierkegaard's term) and claim us (if the christ had not shed his blood from before the creation, everything would have returned to nothingness, including you antichrist peoples). From the tale, one should be able to see that god, although he/she did not make this nothingness, he/she definitely rules it (read Job and see the satan as this nothingness and particularly note where god takes the rap for what has happened rather than blaming the nothingness), and as ruling over it, he/she uses it for he/she's purposes. The error of early calvinism was this predestination (election) of the race into these camps, it is there of course as that is a qualification of the god concept, but not prior to the christ in some remote distant "past" without looking toward the atonement, or in some sense of pure divine sovereignty, but the focus should have been on the christ being elected and predestinated and no one else is elected except by him (no she needed here) to the church. By adding all these hypothetical incidents one really blurs any doctrinal enlightenment. Obviously from the bible, no one comes to the father except by the son-his words, and no one knows the son except that the father draw him-his words, so that is just the way it is, if that bugs you find some other thing to believe in and stop making a fool of yourself. And, further, it is all left up to his choice, one must begin there. However, god is the living god not a static concept, so no one can bind god through some sort of doctrine that attempts to freeze god to some sort of course on into eternal time. He can change his mind (see Moses arguing with him/her over the destruction of the Jews-of course this is in our "time" and the story is for our benefit). God is above predestination not subject to it-except with his son. But, the church is the elect, or the called out ones, and it is god who decides who was, is and will be in it, before they decide. The one who is to become a christian, that one's decision follows god's decision for him, not the other way around.

I am adding a break as I get complaints about my writing! Here is a good way to remember the traditional calvinistic system from the synod of dort (please note, as with any system you can't buy some parts and throw out the rest. There is no such thing as a 3 point calvinist-that is just fiction. Like god, as a concept or system, if you lose part of it you have something but you don't have god).
1, T-total depravity of all people
2, U-unconditional election (not anything you can do for or against)
3. L-limited atonement (not everyone is saved, at least to the church-in historical dispute?)
4. I-irresistible grace (if called-all are called but few are chosen, are chosen, you will believe-so some of you atheists will change your mind somewhere down the road-haha)
5. P-perseverance of the saints (god will hold on to you despite all your sinning and god hating for eternity)

You can see that this spells tulip-now you are all officially brilliant dogmaticians, congratulations. Oh, if someone already put this up, there were a lot of pages on this one so I must confess I did not read them all, never mind.
I must admit that your post sort of confuses me ... Do you believe all will be saved in the end or not? Or do you believe that only those elected by God to become believers will be saved?

I can say that i do not agree with you on the idea that evil/satan/nothingness was not created by God as the bible is Clear that God created evil and for a specific purpose ... The dualism of Zoroastrianism i believe to be a large influence on Modern Christianity and in effect an example of the fact that Modern Christianity is in fact the mystery Babylon system.

It is as if Christians today believe that Good and evil are separate and autonomous powers within the universe, this is dualism and monotheism. I believe it to be in error ...
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,805 times
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All are saved but not all are saved to the church-that is biblical-search Timothy, also god so loved the world, etc. The atonement is that powerful. Even going to hell, is not going into nothingness. At the end all are raised (good and bad), as it says, judged and etc., the goats and sheep parable, etc; so all are brought back from the dead so all are saved from returning to the nothingness before there was the creation. God doesn't not create evil or sin so you have to figure out how it got here. See Barth's Dogmatics volume, hmmmmm, can't remember, maybe the one before the discussion on election. He really goes on about this-nothingness, that is.
Dualism was not that big an influence except to be opposed. That has the idea of two gods, light and dark that have battled and came to a standstill. After invasion by dark into the light. It is clear in the bible that god rules the dark-thats why I said read Job.
Christians, who misunderstand the satan character lean to a dualism by giving the satan an independent (little god like existence) existence, Job disproves this. So yes, some modern christianity leans this way (although I don't think many care about this anymore), maybe in fundy circles (they apply free will to everything). However, its the doctrine that counts not what they think-that is two separate issues.
Augustine once leaned this way (Manichean which was associated with dualism), he refutes this in one of his works after converting to christ.
It is not the babylon system. There the creation is birthed through the god chaos from sex with? (I forget). Moses's account has god making it by language that is why it is in conjunction with his Word and chaos is set its limits by the word. The chaos (godess), is nothing (as all idols are in christianity-are the products of men's minds).
I know my writing is this way but I like it this way-sorry.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,288,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You will go to hell before him my friend. And i don't even believe in hell. But if there is one, its for people who believe the way you do.

What is this? Are you placing yourself in Christ's seat to judge?
It appears so. Be careful...stick to the scripture friend.

God's kingdom is everlasting.
Punishment is everlasting.

Do you disagree that God's kingdom is everlasting/aionios?
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:42 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,805 times
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Not to beat a dead horse, but when one is putting up dry wall, well one has to leave from time to time so I want to add a bit as this stuff really gets me-theology is a mere hobby of mine. There is a chronicles passage where god says he creates evil. There is evil and then there is evil. When god gets angry he does some awful things, such as killing a lot of jews by the assyrians, who cut out the babies from pregnant jews and dash them against rocks and such. There are secular records of these exploits still around. One king bragged of chopping everyone's head off and making big piles of the heads in the town he went through. God takes credit for this and even calls the king the work of his right hand (for fun tell a bunch of christians that you think god still works this way today, such as WW2-a good laugh, try the aides sickness if you have the, well you know!), if I remember right (usually everyone ******* about the jews killing everyone and forgets they took in what they gave out). These are "evil" threatenings and works of god (check out what he did to Eziekiel and Hosea, and of course job). For a note-remember, that at that time there was not a natural rights discourse for property as us moderns have, which came up with Rousseau. Right was for the conqueror and the power to hold property or somehow divine, it is pretty lame to apply modern discourse to a time that didn't even have the words for such discourse.

If you take the christian concept as the highest concept of god (see Anselm's ontological work-some will be offended here but it is just a fact that the concept here is the "absolute" so what can be greater!?), opposition to god is not possible and the odd thing is is that christians attempt to ground this opposition in free will (who resists his will? it says somewhere) even though opposition is not logical with the concept. One has to say then that opposition (sin) is impossible and god can not create something of some equal, or any power that can oppose him-it doesn't make sense (perhaps with Hegel's dialectics). Well how does that opposition (sin) exist? Well it don't, it is nothing and it just happens that god don't like that nothingness (sounds like a Seinfeld episode I saw-haha). God turns it all to what he wills, it is part of his providence. The atheist (assuming the christian concept is correct) does not oppose god but actually is in the service of god, (our concept of free will, a concept of philosophy, psychology, religion, is a recent concept at least in the way we understand it in modernity. How can a modern view of free will be understood in an era before psychological discourse ever existed-the start of which was as late as Kierkegaard?).

Angel means messenger. So it is applied to good angels, bad angels, and men in the bible. This gives the impression that the satan is somehow human like. There is the idea of a war in heaven, and between this war is the first creation and the speaking of god creating (of light). This is called the gap theory (found in old schofield bibles) and it explains that the first creation became chaos because of this war and then god had to rebuild it again during the seven days (if one holds to this I have no gripe-suit yourself, I wonder if there were light swords?). Satin rebelled, lost, and was sent here to bug us with his army (there are some passages that support this view). But if one thinks of the satan as a messenger of nothingness (actually the accuser) then the figure need not be personified as a pagan creature. One could view a telephone as a messenger, or the electrons flowing through the line-many possibilities (Balaam's donkey).

The creation of stuff brings the nothingness with it. It is dialectical-something/nothing. How could there be stuff without nothingness around it (remember god exists only, there is no nothingness with him)? It would be one solid mass of stuff. The greeks knew that everything tended toward nothingness (it all rots, rusts, breaks down, etc). Now think of a nothingness that is absolutely nothing (I find this very hard and can not do it) and think of your self being always threatened with returning there-no atoms, cells-nil. Death equates to this, some things are messengers of this nothingness-illness, accident, war, greed, starvation, depression, selfishness, low self esteem, suicidal thoughts, etc (I don't like to recommend movies, but watch that movie "Ink" and raise your mental abstraction a tad while viewing it-its not theological but it intrudes on this interesting topic).

Finally, be sure you read all these things that you compare rather than use just hearsay. I still hear that the Noah flood is a rip off of Gilgamesh. If you read both, they share a flood but then the comparison breaks down (sorta like saying the big Yellow River flood in China was really a rip off of the great Pennsylvania flood) and the same goes for creation accounts. Internal differences create totally different streams of reasoning.

Naturally I can not exhaust this topic nor plug all possible leaks or unwrap all contradictions. So what ever you believe, well good luck with that and sorry about the lenght.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:59 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What is this? Are you placing yourself in Christ's seat to judge?
It appears so. Be careful...stick to the scripture friend.

God's kingdom is everlasting.
Punishment is everlasting.

Do you disagree that God's kingdom is everlasting/aionios?
I don't agree that aionios means everlasting ... But you already know this ...

When ever the term aionios is applied to God, it does not refer to his eternal being, but to his pertaining to the age or ages. Yes God is beyond the ages, but he also pertains to the ages. He is the God of the ages.

No i do not believe punishment is everlasting, the concept is vain and serves no purpose other than senseless suffering which thing i do not believe God is willing to cause or even allow.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,288,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I don't agree that aionios means everlasting ... But you already know this ...
Yes I do, however I wanted to clarify the below thought process UR seems to harbor

Quote:
When ever the term aionios is applied to God, it does not refer to his eternal being, but to his pertaining to the age or ages. Yes God is beyond the ages, but he also pertains to the ages. He is the God of the ages.
This is called picking and choosing and is in direct contradiction of the scripture and context. No UR can answer this, not even you.
This is the specific verse in question:

Matt 6:13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever/aionios.

The term used here is applied to God, His kingdom, power and glory.
This is forever. His kingdom is beyond and outside of all ages; which is forever.
The same term is applied to punishment and damnation.
Forever.
You can't have it both ways. Either it is forever, or it isn't.

I have looked into the UR Bible, the Literal Concorddant Greek English New Testament, and the same thing happens there, Christ, God and their kingdom is forever, but the punishment is not . Ur is a divided front, and it never will be united, as I have seen over and over again, and until then, this so called, Evangelical Universalism is an oxymoron and a paradox in disguise.
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