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Old 10-21-2009, 11:11 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
The assertion of scriptural clarity only comes from your current belief. I can say that scripture is clear from my point of view, so it is pointless.
I disagree...I personally don't agree pitting scripture against one another, that I see as pointless but my authority is scripture and I will always base it off scripture whether I am right or wrong
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:24 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,684,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I disagree...I personally don't agree pitting scripture against one another, that I see as pointless but my authority is scripture and I will always base it off scripture whether I am right or wrong
It's not about pitting scripture against another, I can say scripture is clear when I present my point of view, and you can say scripture is clear from yours even though we may disagree on the issues we say are clear, so it is a pointless assertion when it comes to a supporting factor for the truth of ones belief.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,708,573 times
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Quote:
Same way you have to harmonize to an atheist how a loving God can kill men, women and children, allow people to starve, little children to be raped. It is within God's character. You don't agree and that's fine.
men deserve death, this is scriptural; however: The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to sheol, and bringeth up (1 Samuel 2:6) and for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22), so there is no reason to lament about God's jugdment when He actually kills people. Everlasting torment however is something entirely different, I asked you several times to try to refute what I have written about Greek aion, I sincerely doubt that you have ever read it.

you also were not able to scripturally refute me here, at least you didn't try.

how do you scripturally defend the traditional doctrine of hell against annihilationism?

if hell were so clear, and is eternal as you claim, wouldn't it be easier to refute this?
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:32 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Again a strawman, you are confusuing the two, if God did something that went against His nature described in the bible then God ceases being God but if he did something that I find to be horrible without scriptural support then I am playing God, I think my way would be better than God's way.
No strawman Fundy. You should read what some Calvinist heavies think.

John Calvin himself said "there are babies a span long in hell".

Jonathan Edwards wrote this in his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon:

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight;

This gives a picture of God toying with His own creation, much like a school boy might torture a spider with a magnifying glass in the hot sun.

Why does God abhor His own creation for simply being as He created it? Where is the love of God depicted in this description? God's character is completely misrepresented here and elsewhere.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,557,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniMae1 View Post
Calvanists?! I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes! Best comic ever!
The Far Side, hands down.

Although you are wrong in my sight, you are not damned to hell.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:38 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,557,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
No strawman Fundy. You should read what some Calvinist heavies think.

John Calvin himself said "there are babies a span long in hell".

Jonathan Edwards wrote this in his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon:

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight;

This gives a picture of God toying with His own creation, much like a school boy might torture a spider with a magnifying glass in the hot sun.

Why does God abhor His own creation for simply being as He created it? Where is the love of God depicted in this description? God's character is completely misrepresented here and elsewhere.
What God abhors is flesh - we see that throughout Scripture; but God does not abhor His creation...how then does He make the distinction? Because He sees in us the division between our carnal nature and what He has deposited and formed in us, His divine nature.

One He kills off, the other He promotes and refines. That's how we see wrath and judgment, yet restoration.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:40 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
What God abhors is flesh - we see that throughout Scripture; but God does not abhor His creation...how then does He make the distinction? Because He sees in us the division between our carnal nature and what He has deposited and formed in us, His divine nature.

One He kills off, the other He promotes and refines. That's how we see wrath and judgment, yet restoration.
Yes good point. Sin is of the flesh, and the flesh will be destroyed, annihilated even, forever.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:53 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
men deserve death, this is scriptural; however: The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to sheol, and bringeth up (1 Samuel 2:6) and for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22), so there is no reason to lament about God's jugdment when He actually kills people. Everlasting torment however is something entirely different, I asked you several times to try to refute what I have written about Greek aion, I sincerely doubt that you have ever read it.

you also were not able to scripturally refute me here, at least you didn't try.

how do you scripturally defend the traditional doctrine of hell against annihilationism?

if hell were so clear, and is eternal as you claim, wouldn't it be easier to refute this?
Sorry I didn't because I realized that it is a waist of time. I don't hold to this doctrine because I want to keep it and love it. I hold on to it because I see it in scripture and it is truth and nothing you say or do is going to change that. We waist too much time debating doctrine and not witnessesing to people on the streets and the devil loves that! Do you witness to people other than telling them there is no eternal hell?
Pitting verses at me is pointless since we do not have the same interpretation (the two "alls" are alike only in the sense that they both apply to descendants but the second "all" applies only to believers (gal 3:26, ephesians 3:6)
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:58 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
No strawman Fundy. You should read what some Calvinist heavies think.

John Calvin himself said "there are babies a span long in hell".

Jonathan Edwards wrote this in his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon:

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight;

This gives a picture of God toying with His own creation, much like a school boy might torture a spider with a magnifying glass in the hot sun.

Why does God abhor His own creation for simply being as He created it? Where is the love of God depicted in this description? God's character is completely misrepresented here and elsewhere.
Let's use some spiritual maturity here and understand that just because someone is a Calvinist doesn't mean they hold to EVERYTHING John Calvin taught. Charlse Spurgeon believed in an old earth, I disagree with him.

These were different times in a different period with a different culture and different styles and methods. You are judging them based on your period, who are you? Will I say those things? Nope! Do I think what they said was a sin? I don't know, maybe not.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Actually God is far more just and merciful than any of us. It's ludicrous how you insinuate God's justice is worse than that of man, on the basis that God's ways are not ours.

2 Samuel 24

14 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."
I think this verse was on Hitlers mind before he blew it to pieces... I'd take God's judgment over human judgment any day!
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