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Old 12-08-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The Greek word for Eternal with respect to Life is forever, however, when it is applied to Punishment it is temporal...Punishment only means to cut, or prune.....regardless of the fact that it means punishment or torment....can't you see the truth here?...
I don't follow you?

κόλασις does not mean what you present at all. Are you UR?
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes....for now...past and present, and most likely for a while in the future....but that isn't for His glory at all, as the scripture never states that those events of punishment are.

But I can't end there you know

Personally Alabama, it sounds like you aren't completely UR, and I am neither completely ET or AN, or whatever people want to label me.

I believe there is a place outside of the third dimension, in this life, that is separated completely from God, forever.

However, I personally believe that His kingdom on earth will continue to increase, and increase and increase, until hopefully, all mankind will be saved and believe in Christ. But I don't believe this to be propehetic, just the work of the church from a kingdom that has already been established.
Whether that be in 50 years, or 10000 years, the scripture says:

Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Because God will perform this, I believe it to be true.

Hope that helps you understand me a little better.
Id say you are simply ambivalent ... At least in regard Gods judgment of mankind.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:50 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,321,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't follow you?

κόλασις does not mean what you present at all. Are you UR?
Hallelujah...Richard (aka: burn-baby-burn...LOL) has been converted!!!!
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Id say you are simply ambivalent ... At least in regard Gods judgment of mankind.
You're a futurist, so why should I regard your opinion in regards to judgement on mankind? That event, the resurrection of the dead, Rev 20 already happened in my eyes, so we are polar opposites.

Your crowd Ironmaw, believes the world is going to end and the conflagration of the earth and heavens will transpire, the judgement of the dead, and the renewal of Mount Zion is going to occur sometime in the future, you believe salvation is postponed..this is ambivalent and contradictory to the scripture.

One day everyone will be a Preterist.....just wait and see.

I believe that the Lord will draw all mankind to Himself, this is his desire and zeal - Isa 9:7 - however, is this prophetic? NO, it isn't. This is the mission of the church, and the duty of the church to increase His kingdom so that it does just that.....increases.

This is a realized condition because the kingdom is already in place, the matrices of it have already been designed and set in stone, there is no more need to expand or alter what has already been prepared, only the those that enter into it, the souls and spirits clothing themselves with the incorruptible bodies that have accepted Christ as their Savior in their previous 3 dimensional life while they were in their corruptible bodies.

The scripture does not teach anything to the fact that spirits and souls are redeemed after they have endured their punishment.
This is ambivalent and contradictory to the scripture, no matter how much you try to dance around it.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Hallelujah...Richard (aka: burn-baby-burn...LOL) has been converted!!!!
I believe he was being facetious...LOL
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Hallelujah...Richard (aka: burn-baby-burn...LOL) has been converted!!!!
No he believes in conditional immortality or annihilation ...
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:35 PM
 
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To further this discussion -

I think UR has been given a bad rap by those who hold to conventional reformed theology on this board. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion between those who hold to the UR understanding of scripture, but how is this any different than those who hold to a 4 point Calvinist position, for instance? There certainly are allowances for differences in reformed theology, are there not?

Often when confronted by others as to what "doctrinal statement" I subscribe to, I find little value in going into all the particulars, so I'll usually say I'm a "Universal Calvinist". If asked to explain this, I'll tell them I believe in full 100% accomplished atonement (like the 5 point Calvinist does) but that it is effectually applied to all humanity (unlike the 5 point Calvinist). I'll also tell them that all humanity is saved by Christ and regenerated by the Spirit in the exact same way that the 5 point Calvinist believes.

In my mind, it comes down to the scope of those whom God has predestined and chosen (elected) to save as His people. I believe 100% of humanity was chosen in Christ (elected) for salvation, and all will be saved; as opposed to traditional Calvinism that limits the election in Christ to something other than 100% of humanity.

Is this so difficult for the more traditional 5 point Calvinists to grasp?
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Alabama,

What is difficult here to grasp is that you adhere to "all mankind" are saved, past tense, and that there is no prerequisite for them to realize that salvation effective. What I mean is, that yes, all mankind has been given the free offering of salvation, but like Paul compounded, it takes the profession of faith inwardly and outwardly to be an effective recipient of that free gift, otherwise, to the sinner who hasn't professed neither inward or outwardly, that free gift is just floating around in the air without proper propitiation from God, and the blessing is ineffective.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:06 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,321,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

What is difficult here to grasp is that you adhere to "all mankind" are saved, past tense, and that there is no prerequisite for them to realize that salvation effective. What I mean is, that yes, all mankind has been given the free offering of salvation, but like Paul compounded, it takes the profession of faith inwardly and outwardly to be an effective recipient of that free gift, otherwise, to the sinner who hasn't professed neither inward or outwardly, that free gift is just floating around in the air without proper propitiation from God, and the blessing is ineffective.
Let me explain how I see that part of salvation. It's actually identical to 5 point Calvinism:

Profession of faith is the outward expression of the inward working of grace by the Holy Spirit. It's the part of sanctification. I break salvation down into a number of distinct parts, if you will, that make up it's whole.

The parts of salvation that are wholly within the sovereignty of God, that man plays no deciding role in whatsoever, are: Foreknowledge, Predestination, Election Justification and Regeneration (the prerequisites to entering the Kingdom).

The part of salvation that man does participate in is his Sanctification which happens over time. Sanctification is where his renewed spirit (Regeneration by the Spirit), now believes in the Gospel, confesses Christ as Lord, performs good works, displays the fruits of the Spirit, etc. The final part of mans salvation will be when he is resurrected in glory to be with God and Christ for ever.

I think most 5 point Calvinists would probably agree with most of that.

Does that help any?
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Alabama,

All that I agree with completely. Now for the meat of UR, and IMO, the heresy within, is that do you adhere to the salvation after death consequentially after the fire judgement punishment for the unsaved?
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