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Old 12-08-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

All that I agree with completely. Now for the meat of UR, and IMO, the heresy within, is that do you adhere to the salvation after death consequentially after the fire judgement punishment for the unsaved?
I don't know why they call it, "fiery judgment" call it for what it is, "PURGATORY"
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I don't know why they call it, "fiery judgment" call it for what it is, "PURGATORY"
Now that was a good response....even they are guilty of adhering to the doctrines of men
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't follow you?

κόλασις does not mean what you present at all. Are you UR?
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[LEFT]yes, it does...go here..... For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Matthew 25:46[/LEFT]
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:14 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
To further this discussion -

I think UR has been given a bad rap by those who hold to conventional reformed theology on this board. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion between those who hold to the UR understanding of scripture, but how is this any different than those who hold to a 4 point Calvinist position, for instance? There certainly are allowances for differences in reformed theology, are there not?

Often when confronted by others as to what "doctrinal statement" I subscribe to, I find little value in going into all the particulars, so I'll usually say I'm a "Universal Calvinist". If asked to explain this, I'll tell them I believe in full 100% accomplished atonement (like the 5 point Calvinist does) but that it is effectually applied to all humanity (unlike the 5 point Calvinist). I'll also tell them that all humanity is saved by Christ and regenerated by the Spirit in the exact same way that the 5 point Calvinist believes.

In my mind, it comes down to the scope of those whom God has predestined and chosen (elected) to save as His people. I believe 100% of humanity was chosen in Christ (elected) for salvation, and all will be saved; as opposed to traditional Calvinism that limits the election in Christ to something other than 100% of humanity.

Is this so difficult for the more traditional 5 point Calvinists to grasp?
Who are His people?
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:56 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

All that I agree with completely. Now for the meat of UR, and IMO, the heresy within, is that do you adhere to the salvation after death consequentially after the fire judgement punishment for the unsaved?
In going back and reading some of my posts you'll find that I don't make a distinction between Justification and Regeneration as a marker between being saved or unsaved. Everyone is "saved" by virtue of Christ's death for their sins and being declared righteous (justified) by God through His resurrection. That work is done, and in the words of Christ: it is finished; and secures our salvation.

Regeneration, on the other hand, happens to each of us in time through the working of the Holy Spirit as a consequence of our being Justified by God. The Holy Spirit may choose any method to regenerate our spirit and whatever time frame it pleases Him to reveal His salvation to us. For some of us it will be early in life, for others later in life, and for some in very old age. But no one knows when or where this occurs:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

The next question is, IMO (and there is no scripture to either support or deny this): Is there any possibility for the Holy Spirit to reveal salvation to anyone after death? Well, first we would have to concede that regeneration did not take place for those we consider unbelievers, or without faith, at the moment of death. But can anyone actual say regeneration never occurs at death? I don't think anyone can. We can guess and perhaps say no, but do we really know what happens at the moment of death? Of course not. We've all heard stories of those that have been "to hell and back" but how reliable are those testimonies?

But for the sake of this discussion, let's suppose not all have been, or will be, regenerated in this world. This might well apply to infants, young children, those with incapable mental abilities or psychiatric limitations, those who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel, and those who have not, as yet, believed in the Gospel. I'm sure more could be added to this list.

I'll stop here for a moment. Do you agree with this so far?

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-08-2009 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Who are His people?
Those for whom God elected that Christ would die for.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Richard...I have been to that site before...good analysis. I understand now what you are presenting and I agree...this punishment is pruning as the text implies...those that reject Christ will be literally "cut off" from the well of living waters. Just like the stump is of God, and the branches of the Jewish church were cut off, the axe was laid at the root of the tree, so too were the wild branches, us Getiles, and the Jews receiving Christ, are grafted back in. But anything that does not, is severed from that tree of life, forever.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Who are His people?
Quote:
Those for whom God elected that Christ would die for.
His people are none other than the church....those that are elected and predestined to receive Christ as Savior. None other.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
His people are none other than the church....those that are elected and predestined to receive Christ as Savior. None other.
Agreed. However, are you suggesting that their is an election that Christ does not save?
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:02 PM
 
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sciotamicks - I'm still confused regarding your concept of the atonement. When I speak of Christ dying on the cross for someone, I use that term to mean full effectual atonement that actually saves. Just like normal, reformed Calvinistic theology. Is this also your position?
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