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Old 12-11-2009, 03:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He is speaking from the standpoint of the believer, the elect....
Yes, believers are obviously included, however the declaration of righteousness is to all sinners (the elect). Let me explain why this is so:

When looking at the order of God's decree and determining who are the elect, we are told His call precedes His declaring righteous:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

At this point the elect are as yet, undefined. A few verses later (verse 33), we are told who the elect are (the YLT translation uses the phrase "choice ones") and that it is the elect that have been declared righteous:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God is He that is declaring righteous,

Based on this, we know who the elect are. The elect are those He did call and whom he declared righteous:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

With that settled, we now need to know who specifically "He did call".

During the proclamation of the Gospel, Jesus defined two classes of humanity: The called, and those that are not called. To understand who are the called, we have to discover why Jesus came, and why He did not come:

Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Mar 2:17 And Jesus, having heard, saith to them, `They who are strong have no need of a physician, but they who are ill; I came not to call righteous men, but sinners to reformation.'

Luk 5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Jesus has now defined why he came: For Kindness (mercy); and to call sinners to reformation (repentance). He came to call a select group of people: Sinners. He did not come to call the righteous.

The called ones are the elect. They are: Sinners. The non called are the non elect. They are: The righteous.

To further illustrate the difference between the called (elect) and the non-called (non elect), Jesus defines the called as being the lost:

Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'

Mat 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.

Surprisingly (or perhaps not surprisingly), the elect are not the righteous. In fact they are the opposite. They are the impious (grievous sinners, the Godless ones). These are for whom Christ died and whom God is declaring righteous:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

To figure out just how many of these impious sinners there are, Paul tells us here:

Rom 3:10 according as it hath been written--`There is none righteous, not even one;

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--

From this, Paul has identified the scope of the called (the elect). They are: To all, and upon all those believing: But there is no difference between the two groups. All are Sinners, all our impious, in that all did sin and not even one person was found to be righteous (non-elect). There is not one person who is non-elect! Not even one. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bush and Obama, all elect. You and me, all elect. Judas, elect. Those that nailed Jesus to the cross, elect. Those that planned Jesus' execution, elect. The people on death row, elect. All are elect.

Now, many will object to this reasoning and say: Many are not called "effectually" when they hear the Gospel, and "many are called but few are chosen". However, these objections are not scriptural for the following reasons: Scripture defines those whom He did Call as being the ones that are declared righteous. Secondly, the "effectual" call of the Gospel occurs in time, after our being declared righteous, not before. Effectual calling occurs during the act of Regeneration, by the Spirit. Also, we are told that those who are declared righteous have their accounts reckoned in time, when they believe:

Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

The act of being declared righteous by God, precedes the act of God reckoning us righteous. Reckoning occurs in time, as Rom 4:24 states. At this point, many will now argue that it is only those who are believing that are reckoned as righteous. This is true, but only in time, not in the eternal decree of God. If we go back to Rom 8:30, we are told that those (the called) who are declared righteous are those that will also be glorified:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

To summarize this: We know that every sinner without exception will be declared righteous by God. We also know that every sinner will, at some point in time (through Regeneration of the Spirit) be brought to repentance, believe in Christ and the Gospel and have their account reckoned as righteous, and also be glorified.

1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--

But again, the declaration of righteousness and the reckoning of righteousness are two distinct events. Our declaration of righteousness occurred at Christ's resurrection. Our reckoning of righteousness occurs in time at the new birth (Regeneration of the Spirit), and finally, all sinners (all the elect) will, in the end be glorified.

This is the reason IMO that Universal Salvation is real, it is true, it is scriptural, and I believe in it. Praise God for it!! (Sorry for the length of this post, this is the last one for me on this...LOL) .

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-11-2009 at 04:46 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:09 AM
 
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Thank you AlabamaStorm.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:30 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Another common belief that is not scriptural. Let's look again using a literal translation:

Rom 3:21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--

It was through the faith of Jesus, not ours my friend, that saved us. Unfortunately, the newer translations that are based upon the doctrines of man pervert this wonderful truth. And here it is again:

Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

Php 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith,

I recommend a bible translation that is accurate. You'll find it glorifies God, not man.

Also, we receive Christ (when believing the Gospel) through faith by regeneration of the Holy Spirit, not in our justification at the cross.
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify. - YLT, 1898
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:40 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I notice how you forgot to bold that last part (so let me help you)




No thanks I like my NASB and ESV



We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous.

Sorry I believe in repentance before regeneration.
How can one who is dead in Sins, who wants nothing to do with God, Repent of what they love doing, Sinning, until God regenerates (quickens) the spirit....being born from above means to be regenerated, quickened, made alive spiritually...the Gospel is spiritual, but in our sin state we are unspiritual and spiritual things are spiritually discerned....dead man can understand nothing....Lazarus and Christ calling him forth are a good example of our state before we are made alive, Lazarus could not respond to Christ's voice until he was made alive physically, so, until we are made alive spiritually we cannot respond to Christ's voice (Gospel)to come out....Until you are made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit, how can you repent of something you are not aware of in your dead sin state?
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:44 AM
 
Location: US
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[quote=AlabamaStorm;11958992]Yes, and you forget to bold there is no difference. Seeing you're so kind, I'll help you too, and bold it in red...LOL :

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

I would say Paul is making the point that not just the Jews are called now but also the Gentiles.....actually before i got saved i read that in the old KJV, i think, and thought only the Jews and greeks were going to heaven and all the rest were headed to hell...lol
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Florida
595 posts, read 715,068 times
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The only thing I believe is predestined is prophecy and the suffering and death of Jesus for mankinds
sins past present and future. Adam and Eve were given a choice and we are given choices based on an intellect,will and wisdom directing our path. The tools are given us and our destiny based on the word of God. Heaven or hell awaits us contingent on decisions,path and judgement based outcome
the later a one on one with God. Don't let pride and non-supernatural philosophies lead to an eternal
error.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:18 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, and you forget to bold there is no difference. Seeing you're so kind, I'll help you too, and bold it in red...LOL :

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

Both to all (coma) and upon all those believeing are declared righteous through the faith of Jesus. For there is no difference.

Well, this is why you and John MacArthur don't quite get the Gospel. . Justification does indeed declare us to be righteous before God, it imputes Christ's righteousness to us. We come to the knowledge of it (those of whom the scripture says "upon all those believing") through regeneration by the Holy Spirit. But carry on, if nothing else though, I do recommend a new translation...LOL
I recommend that he get a greek interlinear and possibly a Hebrew one also.....
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes of course, but that is the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, not justification! And yes, no one will enter the Kingdom of God without believing in Christ and having this knowledge of the Gospel. But again, (I sound like a broken record...LOL) that is the work of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, not our Justification that occurred at the cross.

We are not justified because we believe. We are justified by Christ alone, and it is His work for us on the cross that saves us. We experience His salvation in time, through the new birth by the Holy Spirit.

My Gospel is complete and it tells us why we are justified. That's the Gospel Paul proclaimed. And it was given to him by Christ, through revelation, 2,000 years ago. The new translations have made a mockery of it. They declare a works based Gospel, that is no Gospel!

If you don't like the YLT that I use, get the LITV or read from a Greek/English interlinear. Even the KJV has it right. The guys back in 1611 new the Gospel! The Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible from the 1500's, of which the KJV is based upon, new it too. They all proclaim the grace of God justifying the sinner by the faith of Jesus. They proclaim the Gospel!
Justification is the declareing righteous of the believer, just as Abram was Justified by Faith....IOW made righteous is the state in which Faith puts you not necessarily your walk, that is sanctification, Justified is an imputation because of what Chist did on the Cross..........
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
So are you saying, one does not have to repent? It's your lack of understanding the true gospel that puts you in this position. Why even send missionaries. why Go ye there and teach all nations?
The fruits of the Spirit through Faith is Repentance, Scripture says that God grants repentance and that wording tells me it is not something that i do but something that God does to me
1. Because of Grace God calls one through regeneration of the spirit and bestows Faith, it is because of Faith THROUGH Grace.
2. at the same time God grants Repentance, a turning around from where you are at, 180 degrees.
3. Now you are Justified.
4. God sanctifies you throughout your life, IOW improves you.....

Those that God predestinates WILL respond to the Gospel and it says that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your Heart, you shall be saved.....no pr-erequisites, no post-requisites.....

In the OT, what was the Sin of the Hebrews that escaped bondage from Egypt Where God said They shall not enter My rest because of it?
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:40 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
How many times do I have to tell you that is not what I believe...LOL That is not why mankind is saved. They are justified by Christ on the cross and are, or will be, regenerated, (saved as you put it), by the Spirit of God, just like you and I. And it ain't my doctrine silly boy! LOL It's way too early to be hitting the bottle you two. Admit it! You guy's do not believe the Gospel!
The bible uses the word Saved....
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