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Old 12-11-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
sciotamicks - See a couple of my prior posts where I asked a few questions about your doctrines on justification .

I'm still trying to figure out if guys are just plain high on something (and it ain't Jesus), or if you really know what you're taking about...LOL

And now you want to bring your buddy Mike into this discussion? He's an Arminian for cryin-out-loud. How is that going to help your case?
I think Mike is a Semi-Pelagian....
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Justification is the declareing righteous of the believer, just as Abram was Justified by Faith....IOW made righteous is the state in which Faith puts you not necessarily your walk, that is sanctification, Justified is an imputation because of what Chist did on the Cross..........
Let's look at this in more detail:

Rom 4:3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;'

Gal 3:6 according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;

It was reckoned to Abraham when he believed God. Abraham's being declared righteous (justification) occurred at the cross. There is a difference between the two words and the two events: Reckoned and Declared Righteous. For those born (or regenerated) before the cross, reckoning precedes the declaration. For those born (or regenerated) after the cross, reckoning follows the declaration.

Another point to be made here: Justification (being declared righteous) at the cross is for the sinner, not only believers, per se. Paul (rather Saul) was justified at the cross, but did not become a believer until regenerated by the Spirit, in time. We know Saul heard the Gospel when Stephen was being stoned, and rejected it. But God had already declared Saul to be justified (declared righteous) due to Christ's death and resurrection for him. But this righteousness was not reckoned to Saul (now Paul) until faith.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-11-2009 at 11:07 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The bible uses the word Saved....
Of course, but that word "saved" has many components that I was trying to bring out here. It also depends on who is viewing our salvation. We view all the events (plural) of salvation in time, such as our Justification at the cross, Regeneration, Sanctification, and Glorification. God views the event of Salvation (singular) in His decree (His eternal counsel). This is one of the reasons too that when saved from God's perspective, you are saved indeed.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM
 
Location: US
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It is an important consideration not always realized, when studying the opinions that prevailed in the primitive church, that the earliest copies of the Gospels were not in existence until A.D. 60; that the first Epistle written by Paul--1st Thessalonians--was not written till A.D. 52; that the New Testament canon was not completed until A.D. 170; that for a long time the only Christian Bible was the Old Testament; 14 that the account of the judgment in Matt. 25 is never referred to in the writings of the apostolic fathers, who probably never saw or heard of it till towards the end of the Second Century; and, therefore, when considering the opinions of the fathers for at least a century and a half, we must in all cases interpret them by the Old Testament, which scholars of all churches concede does not reveal the doctrine of endless woe. Probably not a single Christian writer heretofore quoted ever saw a copy of the Gospels. - Chapter 6 - The Apostles' Immediate Successors

Let me state that though i do not agree with everything conveyed on the above website, my point here is directed to those that believe that only the NT is valid in our day and that the OT has no merit...which of this type i have run accross many in the last 20 years. The Old covenant made with the Jews is still in force and it is through this Old Covenant that the New Covenant has come, though after thought, it may not be a New Covenant at all, but rather a fullfillment of the Old Covenant where God promised Abram that he would be the father of many nations, calling the canonized letters of the Apostles the New Covenant would possibly tend to lead a new Christian to think that the Old Covenant has no merit or has has been anulled by the New Covenant, which would make God a Covenant breaker where Abram is concerned...I would have to say that the New Covenant is rather a proclaimation of the present fullfillment of the time of the Old Covenant promises and that as stated above ,the only Bible that early Christians had was the Old Covenant Scriptures...i'd say that these are what the Apostles used as proofs that the Old Covenant promises have in fact been fullfilled at that time...and that was the Good News..the Apostles referred in there letters to the Churches to the Old Covenant Scriptures often as proofs that what had physically occurred was a fullfillment of the Scriptures.. I hope this makes sense...
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:16 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, repentance will always result in good works and the fruit of the Spirit. But like you've indicated, it does not justify us before God, but rather man:

Jas 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.
I believe what James was trying to state was works are indicative of true saving Faith, Faith that was not accompanied by good works was indicative of self-made faith which did not come from God but was excercised by the individual for some reason or the other, i.e. Christianity was pleasing to the eye, the individuall was lonely and Christians were the only people that would accept him, etc..this would go along with the parable of the Sower....
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:25 AM
 
Location: US
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2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,

This was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures, not the New Testament..
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rev 20:12-13
and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;


1Cr 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
You should understand that he was talking to Christians from a Christian standpoint...in this way it harmonizes with the letters that speak of eternal punishment...

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' - YLT, 1898

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Here we see that the same word for Eternal, everlasting is used with Punishment as well as Life..Either the two are Eternal or the two are Temporal...it cannot be both ways..if Life is eternal (αἰώνιος), then punishment would also have to be Eternal (αἰώνιος), same word used in both instances...So, if Punishment is only Temporal, then, Life is only Temporal also...

Also, the same word used here:


Mat 25:41 ThenG5119 shall he sayG2046 alsoG2532 unto themG3588 onG1537 the left hand,G2176 DepartG4198 fromG575 me,G1700 ye cursed,G2672 intoG1519 everlastingG166 fire,G4442 preparedG2090 for theG3588 devilG1228 andG2532 hisG846 angels:G32

Mat 25:40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .

This here seems to be speaking of Christians to Christians, because it is the believer that is considered the brother of Christ...not the non-believer...

And this:

G4442
πῦρ
pur
poor
A primary word; "fire" (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.

Here it is speaking to the believer:

Col 1:21 And you--once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
1 Cor 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Did Esau have a choice?



Jhn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.



You talk about Choice, and human free will as if a carnal degenerate man has the power to choose God, when Christ himself says we do not choose him but that he chooses us ... Simply more evidence of traditional inconsistencies and contradictions of the scriptures that are rampant throughout fundamentalist and orthodox Christianity.
I agree with you here...a man dead in sin can no more respond to the Gospel than could Lazarus respond to Christ's voice to come out from the tomb until he was physically made alive and therefore his hearing apparatus, Ears, were functional, so, until our dead spirits are made alive by God, we cannot here the call of the Gospel...I think the Lazarus event is a perfect example of the way the calling works...I will go as far to say that we are all in the same condition spiritually as Lazarus was Physically...and the Gospel is Christ calling us out of our tomb...but again, we cannot respond until God regenerates our spirits (gives them birth from above) as He did with Lazarus physicsl body...
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,915,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Talk about being clueless . . . sciotamicks . . . your understanding of God is incompatible with Jesus. There is no way anyone who actually knows Jesus could EVER imagine Him loving only SOME of us or imposing ETERNAL punishment on ANY of us for any reason. Think about that while you contemplate "what kind of Spirit you are" and what kind of "god"(or Spirit) you are following.
Mal 1:2 I have lovedH157 you, saithH559 the LORD.H3068 Yet ye say,H559 WhereinH4100 hast thou lovedH157 us? Was notH3808 EsauH6215 Jacob'sH3290 brother?H251 saithH5002 the LORD:H3068 yet I lovedH157 (H853) Jacob,H3290
Mal 1:3 And I hatedH8130 Esau,H6215 and laidH7760 (H853) his mountainsH2022 and his heritageH5159 wasteH8077 for the dragonsH8568 of the wilderness.H4057
H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

Rom 9:13 AsG2531 it is written,G1125 JacobG2384 have I loved,G25 butG1161 EsauG2269 have I hated.G3404


G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

I find it interesting that the OT scripture that Paul refers to, in the Hebrew, has the definition of hate (נשׂנא) thus, but, as it is written in the Greek, the Greek word (μισέω) is defined so...In the Hebrew it is saying God hated Esau, and in the Greek it is saying that He loved him less...

Last edited by Richard1965; 12-12-2009 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama...Roll Tide

I am sober...3 years so I don't hit the bottle...I do crave a little weed from time to time, but I never smoke it LOL

My high is Christ...Jesus Christ...and what He did for me. But I just read that you asked about justification...and I missed that. I am sorry.
Like I said...message boards...curse more, less blessing at times.
Real face to face is more effective...the passion is there, the fire and glow around us when we preach is so evident...anyway...I am rambling.

My answer is such:

I abide by the Westminster Confession of Faith on Justification....like you.

I, like you, have the blood of Christ on me, and God sees my sins no more, past present and future, although I must present myself to Him, when I sin, and renew my faith and repentance.

All six points of Chapter 11 I abide by and completely agree with.

Hope that helps!
Heb 6:1 Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
Heb 6:2 of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,
Heb 6:3 and this we will do, if God may permit,
Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.
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